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Clicker Training for Dogs Newsgroups?
Jen wrote:
I would love to know of one as well. If there was enough people interested maybe we could start one. I've just started clicker training my dog and have been doing the positive training for a while now. I think it's great!! Jen "artbylucy" wrote in message . .. Hello, Does anyone know of a dedicated newsgroup for positive-only dog training, in particular clicker training? Thanks, Lucy Jen, your request for a positive only dog training list, needs the same answer as I give the folk who ask why I don't have a list for what I do with biofeedback. The method is so simple, and if you adopt it and relate to your dog in such a positive manner you won't have any more problems and there is no need for any more technique. With Puppies we Ph.D. psychologists have been outflanked by the entirely practical and effective methods described in http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u. Free download, nothing sold, no mailing list, no distribution of your name. Free support if needed. With ADHD kids I provide similar information at www.drbiofeedback.com and there is no need for a list dealing with problems with kids. Apply as directed and have happy healthy doggies or kiddies. Not difficult. George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H. P.S. jerk and choke, spanking, shocking, scruff shake, choke, chin chucks, all those negatives, denial of affection etc. are harmful, dranging, obscenities. You might want to consider Pavlov's typology to understand "hard and soft dogs" - essentially he taught that there are outward and inward responding organisms in weak and strong nervous systems and if you grasp this firmly you'll shape your training methods effectively. Punishment ALWAYS deranges behavior, and so is recommended and given only by deranged humans. Of course, it doesn't matter if we are talking dogs, cats, people, sheep, even husbands. Dr. Von |
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Hello artbylucy,
artbylucy wrote: Hello, Does anyone know of a dedicated newsgroup for positive-only dog training, These are the ONLY ones which offer 100% consistently nearly instantly effective non physical non confrontational scientific and psychological techniques for all critters and all temperament and behavior problems. in particular clicker training? If you've been following this thread, even the most highly ignorant of our dog lovers are aware that offering and witholding bribes causes aggression hyperactivity phobias OCD'S and seizures. Offering and withholding bribes/rewards and sometimes PRAISING and sometimes PUNISHING behaviors contradicts the PRINCIPLES of behavior and violates the SCIENTIFIC METHOD. You CANNOT effectively train ANY critter using BOTH punishment and praise, you've got to use ONLY ONE or the other or you'll make dogs PSYCHO. Thanks, You're welcome. Lucy Here's PROOF: Hello Jeff, Jeff Dege wrote: On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 02:21:10 +0000, Jen wrote: Ok. You have the right to your opinion. Dog training isn't a matter of OPINION, it's SCIENCE. That's fine. Not fine if you don't know the SCIENCE. I don't mean any offence. Not to worry, you don't have to apologize for having a difference of OPINION about hurting intimidating and murdering innocent defenseless dumb critters. I have been interacting with a particular strident, obnoxious, and ineffective group of self-professed "purely positive" trainers. Water seeks it's own level, don't it. So I tend to be a bit sensitive. Naaah? A SENSITIVE NAZI??? BUNK! As for my opinion, Your opinion is welcome here on these open unmoderated news groups. I generally agree with you. That's convienient. IN FACT, it's MANDATORY or the SCIENTIFIC METHOD will FAIL. Let's all do the Monkey Macarena together so we know what's up. I just recognize that dogs are different, Different from what? Children? Kats? and that what works well for most dogs doesn't work for all. That's because you're not familiar with the SCIENTIFIC METHOD. "Jeff Dege" wrote in message news Like assuming that physical reprimands are bad, Yeah, like PRESUMING ANY behavior is BAD. Dogs and children DO NOT DO BAD behaviors they REFLEX in PREDICTABLE NORMAL NATURAL NINATE INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE ways to situations and circumstances of their environment which we create for them. while ignoring misbehavior is good. You can't train ANY behavior by IGNORING IT. You simply can't assume that is the case for all dogs. Not unless you was following the SCIENTIFIC METHOD, Jeff. Like this: Hello Robin, Golden Girl Goddess Of Ethickal Breeding and Competitive Agility, Robin Nuttall wrote: Jen wrote: Thanks Diana. I'm there now. Yes, Diana is a true dog lover, just like Robin only not as kindly to us Ugly Americans! Many of the people here need such a lesson on politeness, And political correctness, to boot. they are so rude!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????? ??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! Naaah? Irony much? You mean, LIKE THIS?: Hello Robin, Robin Nuttall wrote: Handsome Jack Morrison wrote: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:01:38 -0500, Jeff Dege wrote: Is that the same Jeff Dege who can't train his own dog not to attack innocent defenseless dumb critters despite his shock collar and perfect come command?: From: Jeff Dege Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:58:22 -0500 Subject: Squirrell chasing / Prey drive !!!! On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:06:57 -0400, buzzsaw wrote: A Loose Leash !?! Are you kidding me ... this dog is ready to go and the site of a squirell he is gone loose leash, tight leash, no leash. He can see them clear as far as 5 blocks, in fact when a leaf blows he is ready to bounce. He sees a empty water bottle, or a sprinkle head on the grass as approaching he is tensing up because it just may be rocky the squirell. I think the e collar is appropiate here? Although I never used one on him. Won't make any difference. I've been using an e-collar with my JRT, and it's worked wonders for his recall. But the one time he bolted after something small and furry, he paid no attention to the collar until after he'd brought it to bay. Jeff Dege. P- should be used to describe removing or withholding a reward to make a behavior decrease. You mean, LIKE THIS?: From: Gwen Watson Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:07:06 -0600 Subject: E-Collars - with Vibrator? Robin Nuttall wrote: Gwen Watson wrote: KrisHur wrote: Yes but most people that train to this level also train for RL too unless of course you are refering to kennel dogs. In my posts I am refering to family members who are also achieving titles. How many people do you actually know, personally, who have OTCH dogs? Or even dogs with a UD or UDX? I know quite a few, and not a single one of them is a kennel dog. "Real life" manners vary by the dog, with some being great and some being awful. I can't say quite a few. But I can say 2. At any rate the above is the answer I have been trying to obtain. Still why is that these dogs have awful manners? Inconsistency? Lack of common sense on the handlers part? Several reasons? No real reason? Its all very interesting to me and I am sorry my questioning this has upset and frustrated so many. It was honest questions. I have always thought or been told there is never a bad question. It sure seems as though I have asked a very bad question by wanting to know how this is possible. Gwen From: Robin Nuttall Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:34:18 GMT Subject: E-Collars - with Vibrator? Gwen Watson wrote: Still why is that these dogs have awful manners? Inconsistency? Lack of common sense on the handlers part? Several reasons? Depends on the handler. Some people care about good manners, some people don't. But it's still totally disconnected from whether the dog is a good competition dog, which is the point. To take it to agility, I know a lot of really top agility competition dogs who are dog aggressive, crate protective, etc. My own dogs are absolutely awful beggars and counter surfers. Obviously it doesn't bother me personally that much because I haven't eradicated it. That doesn't mean they are not trained to a very high level in other things. No real reason? Its all very interesting to me and I am sorry my questioning this has upset and frustrated so many. It was honest questions. I have always thought or been told there is never a bad question. It sure seems as though I have asked a very bad question by wanting to know how this is possible. No, you've made people mad by nitpicking, overexaggerating, going off on tangents, changing your questions, and not bothering to read responses. Questions are fine. Not liking the answer and getting combative, incoherent, and defensive is not so fine. From: Robin Nuttall Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:27:24 GMT Subject: If you HAD to re-home your dog(s)... Both my girls would go back to their co-owner. Viva, despite, or rather because, of her issues, could go to almost anyone who could give her a safe, calm environment. Because of her very bad early start, she has a real need to be bonded and have a human she can count on. Cala would be a different matter. She would need an experienced working home--someone who knows how to direct and channel drive without overuse of correction. A wimp would turn her into a frustrated and dangerous dog. Someone who wanted to throw their weight around and who was too heavy with corrections might also well end up with a dangerous dog--she's got way too much fight drive to back down if pushed. Fortunately my co-owner is smart and could probably find somewhere quite suitable for both of them. Robin Nuttall. Also, I think that the process of "withholding" a reward Withholding rewards can cause aggression, seizures, phobias of all sorts and OCD'S. "Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVERY LEARNING THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated how we escape the phenomenon that an expected reward not received is experienced as a punishment and can produce extensive and persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)." that resulted in the decrease of a behavior Witholding rewards increases anxiety which would increase the behavior or cause the dog to throw mindless meaningless unthinking random behaviors to elicit the treat. "Postitive emotions arising in connection with the perfection of a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at a given moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW, emotions, not outside rewards, are what reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov. would probably more accurately be accounted for by the *extinction* process. That's so confusing to me I don't see how a dog can figure it out especially when two or three of you can't agree on what's going on with all this alphabet soup. Extinction is best facilitated by increasing excitation or DRIVE and briefly alternately (e.g. randomly presented non physical) distracion instantly followed by prolonged (5-15 seconds) and intermittently thereafter non physical praise before the action is manifest and resume repeating the process till you've successively - successfully conditioned the subject's ability to NOT engage that THOUGHT through NON fulfillment It's EZ. Takes a little sense of timing, a confident gently tone, and consistent tempo, IOW, Pavlovian conditioning. Should take four repetitions with four different stimuli in four different environments to EXTINGUISH ANY BEHAVIOR. "...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov Here's a way I use P- in its classic sense. Is that P as in punishment praise or poo poo? Cala loves agility. Most dogs do. But your dogs "love it" because they're hyperactive and this vents their anxiety. How can you "compete" in agility if you got a dog aggressive bitch who won't even heel after a year and a half of jerking choking shocking bribing intimidating crating and ignoring???: From: "Robin Nuttall" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:26:20 GMT Subject: Warning about Dog Trainer There are pullers, then there are PULLERS. Viva is one of the former, and has learned to walk very nicely on a loose leash. I'm convinced that Cala is genetically incapable of walking on a loose leash. She's almost 18 months old now, and we have been working on the issue since I first put a leash on her. She's so high drive that *nothing* I do is as reinforcing to her as pulling. I can stand still till I keel over--she just stands there at the end of the leash, pulling as hard as she can. I can do sneak aways until I am dizzy, we just get yo-yo effect ("okay, I'll pull THIS way now!). I can clicker her for loose leashes until my thumb falls off--and she still pulls. A click and treat is not as reinforcing as the world around her. Our only real solution at this point is the pinch collar, which keeps her from totally wearing me out, or hurting herself by actually flipping at the end of the leash. I have a feeling this is something that she will only develop with age, and will come regardless of any training I do or don't do. And yes, I've trained many, many dogs to walk on a loose leash, but not this one... Robin Nuttal. It's very highly reinforcing for her. You mean when she ATTACKS you because she gets lots of treats and praise. Do you suppose that's what's caused your dog's SEPARATION ANXIETY?: From: Robin Nuttall Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:47:17 GMT Subject: Crating/Caging: What constitutes abuse? J1Boss wrote: Sally wrote: A guest/foster dog who just needs to chill out. A dog who's so wound up that they just can't seem to stop themselves, and I need to do something - like eat or shower or breathe. Cala is one of those puppies who, when she's tired, just gets more and more and more and more wound up until she's on the verge of total meltdown. While it's amusing to see her tearing through the house on warp speed, it's advantageous to everyone, including her, if she's crated when she gets totally wound like that. I cheerfully tell her she's a good puppy and take her to her crate. Within 2 minutes she's usually sound asleep. Keeps me from strangling her, and all she really needs at that point is to be removed from stimulus so she can crash. And she does. No - don't say that - the crate bashers won't be have any reason to call us thugs! I do use crates forever though - in my car and at training class and shows. Yep. Crates are good places. Crates are safe, and crates take you to fun places and to do fun things. Crates may be helpful to confine dogs with separation anxiety, although many dogs with SA try to escape the crate. Crates are safe places for dogs to hide when visiting children annoy them. Crates are excellent places for dogs to be confined when ill or injured. Viva has some separation anxiety issues. It's difficult for her to be uncrated when I'm not home. She feels she must then take responsibility for the whole house as well as anything and everything she may see outside. It's a lot of pressure for her. If I leave her uncrated, she's always a bit frantic when I get home. If I leave her crated, she only has responsibility for her own space and doesn't feel she has to guard the entire house and yard. She is much calmer and happier being crated while I'm gone. She'll never have the run of the house when I'm not home because *she* doesn't like it. Robin Nuttall. Pavlov Told Us So 100 Years Ago. Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH Oxford, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggys. But she had a lot of impulse and drive control challenges when she was younger. That so? You mean she was and still is hyperactive, oppositional, fear aggressive even with opposite sex dogs and turns on you when FRUSTRATED as per your posted case history. You've never finished those "control challenges", not with EITHER dog especially Cala the one you TRAINED for three years despite having raised her since DAY ONE. Your dogs both have SEPARATION ANXIETY amongst many other PROBLEMS. Like this: From: Robin Nuttall Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:29:21 GMT Subject: Doggie temperament test Suja wrote: Robin Nuttall wrote: Oh My. Whoever thought of this thing is an idiot. Many of the STOP TEST AGGRESSIVE DOG responses are exactly the responses you want to have in a high drive, active, curious dog. I got so many of those (pretty much all that way) for Cala that I stopped taking the test. And she's not aggressive. Well, I don't agree with that stupid test at all, but Cala isn't what I'd call a Newbie dog, is she? Nope. She's not. She's bred to her working heritage. But that test doesn't talk about any of that. It just makes blanket statements. And FWIW, I full well realize the responsibility I took on in breeding the litter I did, with the type of working temperament I was looking for, and got. Heck no, she's not a beginner dog, but I would never have placed any dog out of this litter with a beginner owner. Robin Nuttall. From: Robin Nuttall Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 16:01:45 GMT Subject: Shock and awe shelly wrote: In , Robin Nuttall typed: My dogs don't get to make discipline decisions. My dogs get to be nice with other dogs, period. If they're not nice, they stay on lead until they can learn to be nice. exactly. that goes for being the Dog Police and for being obnoxious brats who pick on other dogs. i don't tolerate either of those behaviors within my own pack or between my two and other dogs. This is something I'm acutely attuned to. Part of it is owning Dobermans, who have a bad rep anyway. Part of it is that I know for a fact that my puppy's sire is profoundly dog aggressive. It was the one thing I did NOT like about using him, and the plusses outweighed the minuses. But I watch Cala like a hawk. Being able to go to offlead parks has actually helped, as she's gotten to meet a large number of dogs of all shapes and sizes. But our dog park is different than many in that it's a huge area with trails cut through brush--mob mentality doesn't often come into it. Robin Nuttall. Namely she would sometimes get too excited, And bite you: From: "Robin Nuttall" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:00:43 GMT Subject: Does your dog do this? "Andrea" wrote in message ... The "sorry" look and licking is appeasment behavior. Dogs to it to avoid retribution, not because they really understand how to apologize. Really, you should just teach her some bite inhibition so that you don't get hurt, and she doesn't have to worry. I totally agree, but with some dogs that's far easier said than done. Cala is finally showing signs of trying to keep her teeth to herself, and it's been a constant battle since she was a baby puppy. She's now 17 months old. I have often been a total mass of bruises from her releasing overdrive into a nip. Not that she's ever full-out bitten me, but trust me, those nips and pinches can be extremely painful. The higher drive the dog is, the more difficult it can be to deal with the issue. Robin Nuttall. go over the top and vent drive by biting/nipping at me. Because you are withholding treats choking shocking intimidating and crating your highly driven working dogs as per you posted case history which I've spent the past couple of hours (maybe ten or so...) just researching your ETHICKAL BREEDING program and your high drive backyard bred genetically DEFECTIVE "working dogs" which you'll ONLY SELL to show homes. Interesting, compelling, sickening stuff, every bit of it. You should be ASHAMED to post here ever again. I had to force myself to quit with only the tip of the iceberg uncovered thus far reading only posts mentioning your dog Carla. I had no idea you were a backyard breeder too! You even bred your DEFECTIVE back yard bred bitch to a DOG AGGRESSIVE sire to get the QUALITIES you wanted, yet you still couldn't train Carla to come or heel by 18 months of age, nor PASS the CGC!!! despite having bred her from your own highly driven working stock bitch. And you got the NERVE to say you don't even "BELIEVE" in the validity of the CGC test BECAUSE YOUR dogs CONSISTENTLY FAIL TO PASS IT. AND THEN YOU DISCOVERED your BACKYARD BRED "STUD" WASN'T GENETICALLY HEALTHY and being the ETHICKAL BREEDER you are, you had to CONSULT your business partner who told you to give up on your backyard ETHICKAL BREEDER project seein as THEY GOT STUNG BIG TIME by you and your ignoramus shenanagains. Did you notify your "WORKING SHOW HOME" PUPPY CUSTOMERS?: From: Robin Nuttall Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:08:34 GMT Subject: Breeders suck... Shelly & The Boys wrote: Then another friend who recently had a litter had mentioned to me that she'd love to see one of her pups go to me. I would've LOVED to have a pup from her litter. However, for my next pup, I a) want a bitch and b) want to wait at least 4 years before acquiring another dog so that Bodhi gets all training & attention that he should. sigh All the work to get *into* the breed, but apparently once you're in, you're gold. :-) Yep, once good breeders figure out that not only do you give your dogs a great home, but you do actually work with them and title them, you pretty much walk on water. And if you're willing to keep a bitch intact for awhile, you are God. But I must admit that now that I'm going to spay Cala- -a mutual decision between myself and my co-owner after a rather major health problem showed up in her sire's line--that I'm looking forward to not having any new dogs for several years. Maybe it's because Cala is enough to turn anybody's hair gray! I plan to wait until she's at least 5 or 6 before thinking about another puppy. That will put Viva at 10 and probably near/at retirement, and Cala should be well settled in and hopefully we'll be a good team by then. That said, I've already got my eye on a potential breeding that should happen several years down the road... Robin Nuttall. Obviously this was a no-go. Seems your entire posted case history 'JUST SEZ NO!'. IN FACT, it rather makes you LOOK like a lying dog abusing punk thug coward as we've SEEN and we AIN'T EVEN GOT STARTED building your GALLOWS with your own written words, Robin. However, I found that a hard correction (P+) tended to ramp her up even higher. Why would you need to HURT a highly driven working dog force IT to do what he was SELECTIVELY BRED to do? Wouldn't you think that'd make your selective breeding program a MOCKERY and a HOAX, Robin? Or would you prefer to call it a CRUEL JOKE on all them puppy customers you STUNG by being a ETHICKAL BREEDER and breeding to a known dog aggressive "stud" (but that's IRRELEVENT as all temperament and behavior problems are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING not BREEDING) who just happend to turn out to have a CONGENITAL DISEASE that you OVERLOOKED in your ETHICKAL BREEDERS PROGRAM? Nice goin Golden Girl Goddess! She has a very high fight drive You mean she PAINICKS when you hurt and intimidate her. and will actively move into a physical correction. You mean she TRIES TO ATTACK you so you got to HANG HER like you done to that fear aggressive Irish Wolfhound in your "class" and jerked and choked IT like how you do your own fear aggressive hyperactive out of control factory DEFECTIVE bitches. And not only that, but P+ corrections actually put her even higher into drive, not something I want to happen in this case. INDEED? How did you determine that? So instead, I started simply taking her to her crate when she bit me. But of course: Jen wrote: "Robin Nuttall" wrote in message news:txeVe.324546$x96.272690@attbi_s72... Yep. Jen keeps saying, "Oh, I don't mean anything negative" while continuously slamming people for "cruel" methods that she can't even define. Those who slavishly devote themselves to one type of training and who condemn others are the poorer for it. I clicker train. I use choke collars. I shape behaviors. I use drive work for focus and intensity. I use pinch collars. I use harnesses. I use food. I use positive and negative punishment. Some of these things I use frenquently. Some very infrequently. I tend to focus my training in the quadrants of positive reinforcement and negative punishment, and am far more likely to eliminate undesired behavior through ignoring it than any other way. I'll also grab my young dog by the collar, lift her up on her back feet, and tell her to KNOCK IT OFF in no uncertain terms when the little snot gets into overdrive and bites me. If you want to discuss training, discuss it here. But be willing to listen as well as talk. And please stop top posting. Robn Nuttall. I was withdrawing her ability to TO BITE YOU. do a very highly reinforcing task--agility. Ummm, wasn't THAT what makes her BITE YOU? If this agility GAME is SO REINFORCING why can't you train her to do the tables and stop line and A frame and not attack you when you hurt her for being OBSTINATE and SKITZY in the ring? Further, I was doing it in a way that did not put her any higher in drive. You mean hyperactive oppositional and aggressive when you jerk choke shock ignore and withhold attention affection rewards trust and respect. She learned that biting/nipping resulted in the fun stuff stopping. You mean the jerking choking shocking and withholding. She spent enough time in the crate to safely come down out of drive, You mean she felt safe and could relax again. then I would take her out and we would do something simple Or she'd ATTACK you again. and praise for being in drive without being over the top. You mean you praise her for BEING HYPERACTIVE and NOT ATTACKING you again. Perhaps you should use PREY DRIVE as well? You got a volatile dog there. Better watch out your SHOCK COLLAR don't spark an explosion. I'd be PREYIN to the Golden Girl Goddess if I was you. It's been very effective. Do tell? "Robin Nuttall" wrote in message news:yX1Hb.664461$Tr4.1669501@attbi_s03... sionnach wrote: I wish I didn't have otherleftitis. "Otherleftitis" -I love it! Just out of curiosity... and this question's to everyone who trains for tables, esp. Robin: do you train an automatic down on the table, with a quick pull up into a sit if needed- or do you train the table as two seperate things- first get on the table, then sit or down? With Viva I trained the latter--she was my first agility dog and I had less than adequate instruction during her foundation, and have been paying for it since, especially on obstacles and the table. You mean you can't train her despite your shock and choke devices and slices of Processed American Cheese Food Substitute cut evenly into 25 equal pieces. However, I have retrained her to do a down first and it's helping, but swear to Dog the judges in this area request a sit 75% of the time and a down only 25%! The down is now mostly adequate, the sit still sucks twinkies. Perhaps you should try a piece of liver between your lips so she'll at least pay attention when you speak to her? With Cala I've trained "get up on the table and lay down." But even though I've done that from day one, I'm still having some trouble with it--when she's in drive she imitates her mother and stands there screeching like a banshee instead of doing her job. That's because you jerk and choke and shock her. She also gets skitzy on the stop line on the ramp. That's the other obstacle you got to her her to do. She barks and screams at you just like Susan Fraser's dog was shrieking on line and nearly got himsel DISQUALIFIED from entering any more trials for the same reason. I usually turn my back on her and that helps. Of course. Works EVERY TIME, don't it. Sure would be nice to get a fast down on the table but I'm sure not having much success... You're not having any "success" because you HURT your dogs, Robin. You've crippled two of them with so called Woblers's SYNDROME from jerking and choking them and Viva's got bi-lateral "arthritis" in her front legs (is THAT PREREQUISITE for BACKYARD BREEDING STOCK, Robin?) and your Cala nearly broke her back and "dislocated" her rib when she took a fall off the ramp she balks on for the same reason you can't even train Cala to heel after having her from DAY ONE till 18 months despite all your pain fear force and intimidation TOOLS: From: Robin Nuttall Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:23:03 GMT Subject: beginning agility Rocky wrote: Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior: Oh yeah - when Friday's barking *at* me, I might as well walk off the course. Naturally, I don't because I'm going to use that expensive training time to the max. Heh. And when Cala is in that mode walking off is the only solution. I'm thrilled for both of you that your dogs have instant and complete off switches. That's exceedingly rare. Assuming there was no sarcasm in there - thank you! Nope, no sarcasm. Though only one of my dogs has an instant off (and on) switch, and I'm doing whatever I can to exploit it while not ruining it. It's funny, though - Friday will do a nanosecond down on the agility table or at the line, but do you think that I can get him to do it away from a trial situation? And I can get super fast downs everywhere BUT the table. With both dogs. I've been working the table a lot more with both dogs, trying to help the issue, but it's definitely a weak spot, and since I have the same issue with both dogs (slow sits and downs, barking) it's got to be a fault in my training. Robin Nuttall. From: Robin Nuttall Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:04:36 GMT Subject: Opinions please...sorry, got long... Sionnach wrote: No, humans should not be allowed to do anything, anywhere, at any time. However, if, say, I have my dog at the vet, and the vet is trying to do something with me supervising the dog, I'd be extremely surprised and upset if the dog protested in my presence--they know that's not allowed and for those moments the vet becomes an extension of me. (I can do this, I'm saying the vet can do this, so deal with it). However, in my absence, I wouldn't be surprised if a vet trying to do something with my dog did elicit a growl. It's never happened yet but you never know. With my three- Brenin would never growl at the vet or a tech, with or without me. He's very unhappy if seperated from me, and will try to get back to me, but he's compliant if I've indicated he should go with someone. He also DOES NOT bite, even in situations where nobody would have blamed him if he had- for instance, when someone he barely knew scared the heck out of him by suddenly grabbing him from behind, picking him up, and flipping him over. Rocsi will growl if caused pain (for example, when the vet was palpating a sore foot), but it's not a threat, merely a communication- she doesn't show teeth or make any attempt to use them, just grumbles & tries to pull away. I don't have any qualms about letting her be handled away from me, either. Well yeah, I'd of course not object if my dog yelped or growled in pain, though I've never had one growl. Dobermans tend to be so stoic and so silent that it's actually a problem--they will NOT show signs of pain at the vets even if you practically twist their affected part off their body. So the vet is going, "gee, she seems fine!" and once I get them home they won't even put a foot down. Cala is the first dobe I've ever had that is what I call a Drama Queen, and man, she plays it to the hilt. Banged her foot on something the other night and had a barely perceptible lump. Acted like she was going to die, limped dramatically until the next morning when she would alternate limping pitifully with charging full speed after her ball. Then she'd remember, "oh, I'm supposed to be hurt!" From: Robin Nuttall Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:07:48 GMT Subject: beginning agility Gwen Watson wrote: Robin Nuttall wrote: I'm thrilled for both of you that your dogs have instant and complete off switches. That's exceedingly rare. Why is it that everytime someone has a different opinion then your own you reply in such a way? You do demonstrate the inability for diversity of opinions. Too often have a seen such remarks from you. Gwen, it was an HONEST admiring comment. I AM thrilled that they have instant and complete off switches. Many people, including me, do not have dogs who are capable of that. I am GLAD for them that they do. I think it's got to be in some way genetic. Viva can come out of drive somewhat quickly, but not that fast. Cala has trouble coming out of drive at all. I see you're off on the whacko side again today...and yes, THAT is meant exactly the way it sounds. You have to be one of the dumbest people I've ever interacted with on usenet, and being as I've been here for 10 years now, that's pretty impressive in and of itself. *Cala had a very nasty fall off a dogwalk a couple of weeks ago, landed on her side so hard she bounced up in the air about 6 inches, and dislocated a rib. Luckily my acupuncturist was actually in the building that night and was able to slip the rib back into place. The next week she was better but her back was now out of place, so an acupuncture treatment fixed that up and now she's fine! I know that Solo has issues. I wonder if you could find an acupuncturist who would be willing to let you just come hang out for several sessions so Solo can get comfy, perhaps while he/she is even treating someone else. I know my dogs wouldn't mind as long as the other person and dog weren't disruptive. A good acupuncturist can do wonders for little miscellaneous ouchies like he's got. Robin Nuttall. Subject: Agility She's 10.5 months old, and has had very little growth since she was 7.5 months old--when she went into season. It's somewhat rare for a large breed dog to have a first season that young--it's more common for it to happen at about 10-12 months. And she wasn't pulled in by Viva- -Viva is going into season right now, 3 months after Cala. So I'm curious to see whether or not Cala's growth plates will close early. Even if they have, she's nowhere NEAR ready mentally to do a lot of work, much less physically. Robin Nuttall. From: Robin Nuttall Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 03:17:25 GMT Subject: Teaching dogs to be calmer.... Rocky wrote: HolierThanThou said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior: he isn't hyper like a Jack Russel, or anything. He isjust busy. Friday is this way as well. He has a great fast down and a good stay/wait, but as soon as we hit agility - Things Change. His down goes from fast to lightning fast but his stay/wait goes out the window. It's not that he isn't trained, obviously - he's just changed gears and, at this stage, I'm not going to extraordinary lenght to "fix" this and perhaps take the fun out of it. You know, I'm having a lot of success teaching the stay as an active part of the game instead of as a boring "stay there till I say different" exercise. So instead of asking for a sit or a down, I get Cala to offer me one for what she wants. Sit, and you get to tug. Down, and you get a click and a treat, etc. I've expanded that to a game of sit and wait. (down and wait). It's very simple. I get a VERY favored toy out. She has learned to offer a sit. If she gets up before I'm ready for her to, I simply remove the toy before she can get to it. She has to go back and sit again to get the toy. So she's learning that waiting is merely a prelude to lots more fun! I conclude the game with a set of commands that she knows is going to trigger her release. For us, it's "Ready" said in a teasing drawn out way, then "Okay! GO!!!" for a release to grab the toy or treat or just run around like an idiot. She's getting to LOVE the wait game! And because she's waiting IN drive, I think she will retain it at the start line better than a conventional stay. Robin Nuttall. Yeah? We'd think you can use your effective stay command when you're fighting and bribing your dogs to hold still for a nail trimmin: Subject: Trimming claws Robin Nuttall Mar 30 2003, I first click and treat for simply turning the dremel on and having it near them, then click and treat for holding a foot while the dremel is on, then drop the clicker (not enough hands!) and at first treat after each nail, weeding that to a treat after each foot, then a treat after it's done. With Cala, who truly does hate it, I sweeten the pot by giving her a tiny treat as we start, then a bigger treat when we're done. She still hates it, but will willingly hop on the couch and will even fight (well not really fight, you know what I mean) Viva for the prime grinding position. Robin Nuttall. From: Robin Nuttall Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:46:35 GMT Subject: Ping Gwen (& Robin N.) agility (was: I want this dog) Gwen Watson wrote: Robin Nuttall wrote: Cala sounds wonderful Robin. I know she is going to give you a Mach some day! If I don't kill her first. Viva will get her MACH long before Cala. How serious is this. I have never heard of it. Is there a way to prevent it, or is it fairly easy to remedy? It can be a chronic problem. It needs rest and specific rehabilitation I know a rather alarming number of bigger dogs with arthritis in their front feet- -Viva has this. I am sorry to hear that. Do you notice it more in the winter? I forget how old lovely Viva is. 6? Viva is 6. Part of hers is because she's missing a tendon in one foot due to a bad injury 3 years ago. She gets lots of supplements. Robin Nuttall. From: Robin Nuttall Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:25:06 GMT Subject: A Note to Owners of Non-Aggressive dogs and Agility Susan Fraser wrote: No. Sorry, but no. I know you kind of meant that as a joke, but so often, when I say, "my dog doesn't like other dogs in her face," people will say, "well, if Fifi goes over there, she deserves to get bitten," or "let your dog put my dog in her place!" Yes, I totally meant it as a joke. And even though I read your AgileDogs post first, I see now that you do realize it was a joke and were just using the post to illustrate a point. *Of course* I do not expect your dog to teach mine a lesson. (And I am aghast that someone would!) I hear it ALL the time. Many, many times when I say, "she doesn't like other dogs in her face," I hear "Oh, I hope she bites him, he needs to learn a lesson." It's maddening. And yes, I was just using your post to make a point on agiledogs. In the case of teaching puppies some manners, I have often felt that instead of play times with equally clueless peers at puppy kindergartens, it would be more appropriate for my pushy golden pups to have a group of adult dogs of various breesd and temperaments to interact with - to mentor to them how to show respect and keep an appropriate distance, etc. And yes, that would be 'using' the older dogs, but when we keep our pups on a leash and refuse to let them interact with various types of older dogs, how are they to learn appropriate behaviors within their own species? That's exactly what I did with Cala. Cala's sire is actually very dog aggressive. So from a tiny puppy, I made a point to get Cala out with a variety of dogs, of all ages, shapes, and sizes. Some were moresubmissive than her, some were bolder. Some put her in her place, some did not. She learned very good dog language skills. Unfortunately, she did get attacked at least three times when she was young. Not in these social situations, but by a friend's bitch who hates puppies. At first, it looked like this would have no lasting repurcussions. But as she's matured, Cala has become more reactive to strange dogs. Part genetic? Perhaps. The good thing is, that if you just give her (literally) five minutes, she relaxes, realizes things are okay, and is happy to play with the other dog unless it's truly obnoxious and pushy. And she isn't looking for a fight--if a dog does tell her to knock it off, she will flatten to the ground immediately. Robin Nuttall. You're lookin at the problemS the wrong way. These dogs are not "high drive," they're HYPERACTIVE from MISHANDLING. Your "training efforts" have made them NERVEHOWES. The "zippy zoomies" are NOT exuberance, they're ANXIETY. The dog KNOWS you cannot HURT IT in a trial...same same same same reason lying "I LOVE KOHELER" lynn's dog Jive gets high scores in the ring (she trains in a ring daily), but CANNOT BE FORCED TO WORK A SAR JOB, the same same as Jeff Dege CAN'T TRAIN HIS OWN DOG not to break command to attack innocent furry critters despite his SHOCK COLLAR trained reliable come command. BWWWWWWAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! "Robin Nuttall" wrote in message news:mtYYa.102050$YN5.71125@sccrnsc01... "EmilyS" wrote in message om... KWBrown wrote in message .1.4... "Robin Nuttall" wrote in news:GKOYa.98019$YN5.69581@sccrnsc01: Basically if I had this dog I would take her to her "boundry" area for the creek--the place where she goes from being normal to frenzied. I would stop just at that line and ask for attention. I wouldn't command attention. Instead I would simply ignore any and all attempts to getto the stream, and wait for the dog to calm down and look at me. When I had focus, I would calmly release to the creek with a trigger word. I think I'm going to take this approach with Storm the next time she zooms at agility practice. I'll bring her near the course and wait for attention before we do anything - and become still and boring the instant she loses focus. I don't want to shut down all that drive, but she has *got* to pay closer attention! Kate the classic "solution" for ring zoomies is to run away and hide outside of the ring when she starts zooming. Everyone else is supposed to completely ignore her, as well. NO reinforcment. Presumably at some point, the brainz that have been leaking out of her head recede. And then she will notice "mom" is missing and she'll start looking for you rather frantically. Then someone alerts you and you come back, calling her excitedly. Yes but that's more of a punishment. Not that it's not a valuable tool, but we're talking about two different things. One is asking for control before something happens and rewarding control with access to the desired activity, the other is reacting to a situation when it's already gotten OUT of control. Dogs with drive need to learn how to channel and direct that drive. It's fun to watch them because it's great to have a motivated dog and everyone is scared to shut them down. On the other hand, you must be able to focus and control that drive or you will never have a consistent performer. And the best way to do that is to help the DOG learn how to reward himself. Instead of you demanding something from him and the situation continuing to escalate as you both get more frenzied, you are calm and you simply wait for the dog to be calm. This might be a LONG wait in some instances, but you've got to do it. And you have to know what you're looking for and reward it *instantly* with a release to the desired object/behavior. So if my goal is to have attention from my dog at the beginning of an agility routine, I will wait for her to focus on me by looking at me for a few seconds. I will then release her to the equipment. As time goes by, I will ask for more focus and direction. Eventually I want her to be able to work with a favored toy in full view, and know that she must perform what I want to get it. From: "The Puppy Wizard" Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 18:23:20 GMT Subject: Thou Foul Beast, Thou Basest Worm... HOWEDY robin, You're a MENTAL CASE. If you can't pupperly handle dogs you shouldn't be takin care of them. Fancy that, you talkin abHOWET "Thou Foul Beast, Thou Basest Worm..." "Robin Nuttall" wrote in message news:fWSfc.3645$0b4.11722@attbi_s51... I have a houseguest this weekend, Jura, a Scottish import Springer. And Cala (2 year old Dobe) is just being SO insufferable. Now mind you, she knows this dog, she's known him since he was a baby puppy and he's now a year old. But she's discovered that as he's a mere MALE and she's a BITCH, she can reduce him to quivering jelly. And she's really, really enjoying it. I'm always reminded of the scene in McCaig's Nop's Trials where Nop totally falls in love with the b**ch in the next run, and for days she spurns him in formal verse. Cala is telling Jura, "Thou foul beast, thou basest worm, thou artst scum, thou art not fit to lick the dung from the bottom of mine feet." All this is accompanied by extravagant facial expressions, typically showing each of her 42 teeth in glorious, shining white. And poor Jura is awed. "Oh, thou artst beauteous, might I be permitted to worship thou toenails?" Now mind you, this is TOTALLY different than what happens when Nell stays here. Nell, dingo-dog, 10 years old and 30 pounds of tough, walks into this house and owns it. Viva tolerates her benignly (just like she's doing with Jura). Cala gives her a very, very wide berth. Poor Jura. A Poor Shepherd Boy And His Dog At His Masters Feet. |
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