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Cat losing body-moisture.



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 13th 09, 10:28 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Eddy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default Cat losing body-moisture.

Thank you everybody re. the suggestion of adding water to his food to
get him to take in more fluid. I don't think this would work unless we
made the food tastier - perhaps by moving up to a more expensive (and
hopefully tastier) brand. We are on a tight budget here and so in the
past, several years ago actually, I tried adding a little water to their
food to make it go further and the result was that they wouldn't touch
it at all!

I have suddenly thought of one way of getting more water into him though
and that's to let him eat as much natural yoghourt as he wants! He
loves it. The only problem I can see with this is that he may get sick
of it and then we would have nothing to hide his aspirin in and avoid
the trauma of getting his aspirin into him. (Our two cats simply will
not permit anyone to put anything down their throats! They will keep
the throat closed for as long as you are willing to kneel there holding
them, and then spit the offending alien matter out onto the floor!) So
we need to insure that the yoghourt remains "a treat".

I wonder what else there may be beside yoghourt.

Eddy.

  #12  
Old April 13th 09, 04:44 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Matthew[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,287
Default Cat losing body-moisture.

Eddy Tuna juice or sardine juice
or maybe the gravy by itself they sell for cats


"Eddy" wrote in message
...
Thank you everybody re. the suggestion of adding water to his food to
get him to take in more fluid. I don't think this would work unless we
made the food tastier - perhaps by moving up to a more expensive (and
hopefully tastier) brand. We are on a tight budget here and so in the
past, several years ago actually, I tried adding a little water to their
food to make it go further and the result was that they wouldn't touch
it at all!

I have suddenly thought of one way of getting more water into him though
and that's to let him eat as much natural yoghourt as he wants! He
loves it. The only problem I can see with this is that he may get sick
of it and then we would have nothing to hide his aspirin in and avoid
the trauma of getting his aspirin into him. (Our two cats simply will
not permit anyone to put anything down their throats! They will keep
the throat closed for as long as you are willing to kneel there holding
them, and then spit the offending alien matter out onto the floor!) So
we need to insure that the yoghourt remains "a treat".

I wonder what else there may be beside yoghourt.

Eddy.



  #13  
Old April 13th 09, 04:45 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Matthew[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,287
Default Cat losing body-moisture.

Sorry Gandalf I did not mean just in this case


"Gandalf" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 00:11:57 -0400, "Matthew"
wrote:


"sudee" wrote in message
...
On Apr 12, 7:30 am, jmc wrote:
Suddenly, without warning, MaryL exclaimed (4/12/2009 9:33 AM):





"Eddy" wrote in message
...
I will be taking this question to the vet once the Easter break is
over,
but in the meantime I wonder if anyone has any advice?

One of our cats, just four and a half years old, has recently been
found
to be suffering from serious heart disease, namely "HCM". (The heart
has become enlarged and deformed, it does not operate normally, and
the
heart-beat is far higher than normal.) It has been a touch-and-go
situation and we are lucky that the cat is still alive.

One of the effects of HCM is that fluid gathers around the lungs,
restricting the space within which the lungs may expand, so breathing
becomes difficult. To combat this particular effect the cat is now
taking furosemide (after having had his pleural cavities drained via
thoracentesis). Furosemide is a diuretic, i.e., it draws moisture out
of the tissues, in this case keeping the pleural cavities clear of
the
inhibiting fluid.

The vet told us to give our cat a quarter of a tablet per day (along
with the ace-inhibitor and the aspirin he must now also take). But,
unfortunately, the difficulty in breathing returned. So the vet
advised
us to double the daily dose of furosemide, i.e. a quarter of a tablet
every 12 hours, instead of once in 24 hours. This has corrected the
situation causing the breathing difficulty, i.e. it has cleared the
pleural cavities of the fluid caused by the malfunctioning heart.
HOWEVER, the diuretic has effected the cat's entire body, drawing
moisture out of ALL his tissues, so that he has become thin - very
noticeably thin, when compared to his healthy twin brother. This has
happened within the space of a week and obviously his getting thinner
still is a great concern.

So, we have reduced the diuretic slightly, so that he receives a
quarter
in the morning, but only an eighth in the evening. It remains to be
seen if this will be enough to keep the pleural cavities free of the
buildup of fluid and whether it may reduce the excessive withdrawal
of
moisture from the rest of his body.

Please note, our cats' diet is entirely wet-food, so we can't get
more
water into him via the feeding route.

Has anybody any familiarity with this situation? Is there anything
else we can do?

Thanks.

Eddy.

Eddy, I can't answer your question about how thin your cat has become,
so I'm glad you will be consulting your vet again very soon. It is
important to learn if it is really lack of fluids that is causing this
problem, or something else. If it is fluid, your vet may want to give
Ringer's lactate (which can also be administered at home, if it needs
to
be an ongoing thing). However, I did have two thoughts concerning your
statement that you can't get more water into him via the feeding
route.
First, you could increase the water in his canned food somewhat by
adding a small amount of warm water to the food; stir it to make a
sort
of "slurry." Some cats will reject it, but it's worth trying. Make
sure it is a premium quality canned food *without* grains. Second
(although this does not involve his food), some cats will drink more
if
the water is moving. Have you tried one of the pet "fountains" that
are
used for this purpose?

Good luck with your kitty, and please keep us updated.

MaryL

Don't have to make a slurry if he won't accept it (mine won't). Just
pour a spoonful or three over the chunks - they'll soak up water from
the bottom. If they start looking dry on top, just flip 'em over. This
works very well for my cat.

Second the "moving water" idea. Also the liquid from tuna in water, or
salmon, is usually considered a treat, and you can probably add a little
extra to help him out.

There are lots of tricks of the trade to cause a cat to drink more water
- I've tried many of them, since my cat has cystitis and we had some
issues figuring this one out.

jmc


Fresh filtered or distilled water only also, my kids love to have ice
cubes added which helps them "see" the water and gets them drinking
lots. Cats love cold water.

Sue M

Actual everything I have been reading is that distilled or purified water
is
not actually good for anyone it lacks the natural minerals needed


That is generally true. However, in a case where you need to get more
fluid into a reluctant cat, ANYTHING that works is good.

The purified/distilled water will make up a small % of the total water
intake (canned food is 70 to 80% water) so this won't affect the cat's
overall health.

I'm sorry you cat is so very, very sick.

I hope you can get him 'stabilized' ASAP, and that you have much more
quality time with him.



  #14  
Old April 13th 09, 08:28 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Eddy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default Cat losing body-moisture.

Matthew wrote:

Eddy Tuna juice or sardine juice
or maybe the gravy by itself they sell for cats


Thanks, Matthew. Have been a little wary of giving him the brine in
which his tuna comes because of its saltiness. Have assumed that the
salt would not be good for him. He gets a little tuna every morning in
which are mixed his crushed medication (the furosemide and the
ace-inhibitor) but I have been seiving the tuna flakes out and trying
not to give him the brine. Maybe I shouldn't worry about this. Perhaps
the sodium will help make up for the electrolytes he's losing because of
the action of the furosemide?

We've had another beautiful day today and it's such a privilege to be
outside in the garden with him watching him rolling around on his back
in a state of bliss just loving it all. It's really weird to be
watching him, now seemingly restored to near-perfect health and
appearances, but knowing that inside his little body is an enlarged
diseased heart that we are told will definitely not last more than a
couple of years, if that.

Eddy.

  #15  
Old April 13th 09, 11:27 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
jmc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 610
Default Cat losing body-moisture.

Suddenly, without warning, Eddy exclaimed (4/13/2009 5:22 AM):
MaryL wrote:

Eddy, I can't answer your question about how thin your cat has become, so
I'm glad you will be consulting your vet again very soon. It is important
to learn if it is really lack of fluids that is causing this problem, or
something else. If it is fluid, your vet may want to give Ringer's lactate
(which can also be administered at home, if it needs to be an ongoing
thing). However, I did have two thoughts concerning your statement that you
can't get more water into him via the feeding route. First, you could
increase the water in his canned food somewhat by adding a small amount of
warm water to the food; stir it to make a sort of "slurry." Some cats will
reject it, but it's worth trying. Make sure it is a premium quality canned
food *without* grains. Second (although this does not involve his food),
some cats will drink more if the water is moving. Have you tried one of the
pet "fountains" that are used for this purpose?

Good luck with your kitty, and please keep us updated.

MaryL


Thanks, MaryL. I have looked up "Lactated Ringers" and I see that it is
"used for the treatment of dehydration and electrolyte depletion in
animals". So I will run this by the vet tomorrow. However, from the
little I have read of this on the internet just now it seems it has to
be injected subcutaneously. I think this would be too traumatic for us
and the poor cat.

Fingers crossed he won't get any thinner and his current happiness will
continue.

Many thanks.

Eddy.




Just had a random thought - is it possible the cat's been thin for a
while, but that it's been hidden by the oedema? If that's the case it
might not be a hydration problem. (question for the vet?)

Incidentally, if you increase his wet food, it'll increase his water
intake as well. And as to adding water, don't add a lot. Start with a
tiny bit, just enough to moisten. If that works, you can gradually
increase the amount, but it doesn't need to be soup.

jmc
  #16  
Old April 13th 09, 11:28 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
jmc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 610
Default Cat losing body-moisture.

Or, the juice from cans of salmon. My cat *loves* oily salmon juice!

Suddenly, without warning, Matthew exclaimed (4/13/2009 11:44 AM):
Eddy Tuna juice or sardine juice
or maybe the gravy by itself they sell for cats


"Eddy" wrote in message
...
Thank you everybody re. the suggestion of adding water to his food to
get him to take in more fluid. I don't think this would work unless we
made the food tastier - perhaps by moving up to a more expensive (and
hopefully tastier) brand. We are on a tight budget here and so in the
past, several years ago actually, I tried adding a little water to their
food to make it go further and the result was that they wouldn't touch
it at all!

I have suddenly thought of one way of getting more water into him though
and that's to let him eat as much natural yoghourt as he wants! He
loves it. The only problem I can see with this is that he may get sick
of it and then we would have nothing to hide his aspirin in and avoid
the trauma of getting his aspirin into him. (Our two cats simply will
not permit anyone to put anything down their throats! They will keep
the throat closed for as long as you are willing to kneel there holding
them, and then spit the offending alien matter out onto the floor!) So
we need to insure that the yoghourt remains "a treat".

I wonder what else there may be beside yoghourt.

Eddy.



  #17  
Old April 14th 09, 04:48 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Phil P.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,027
Default Cat losing body-moisture.


"Eddy" wrote in message
...
I will be taking this question to the vet once the Easter break is over,
but in the meantime I wonder if anyone has any advice?

One of our cats, just four and a half years old, has recently been found
to be suffering from serious heart disease, namely "HCM". (The heart
has become enlarged and deformed, it does not operate normally, and the
heart-beat is far higher than normal.) It has been a touch-and-go
situation and we are lucky that the cat is still alive.

One of the effects of HCM is that fluid gathers around the lungs,
restricting the space within which the lungs may expand, so breathing
becomes difficult. To combat this particular effect the cat is now
taking furosemide (after having had his pleural cavities drained via
thoracentesis). Furosemide is a diuretic, i.e., it draws moisture out
of the tissues, in this case keeping the pleural cavities clear of the
inhibiting fluid.

The vet told us to give our cat a quarter of a tablet per day (along
with the ace-inhibitor and the aspirin he must now also take). But,
unfortunately, the difficulty in breathing returned. So the vet advised
us to double the daily dose of furosemide, i.e. a quarter of a tablet
every 12 hours, instead of once in 24 hours. This has corrected the
situation causing the breathing difficulty, i.e. it has cleared the
pleural cavities of the fluid caused by the malfunctioning heart.
HOWEVER, the diuretic has effected the cat's entire body, drawing
moisture out of ALL his tissues, so that he has become thin - very
noticeably thin, when compared to his healthy twin brother. This has
happened within the space of a week and obviously his getting thinner
still is a great concern.

So, we have reduced the diuretic slightly, so that he receives a quarter
in the morning, but only an eighth in the evening. It remains to be
seen if this will be enough to keep the pleural cavities free of the
buildup of fluid and whether it may reduce the excessive withdrawal of
moisture from the rest of his body.

Please note, our cats' diet is entirely wet-food, so we can't get more
water into him via the feeding route.

Has anybody any familiarity with this situation? Is there anything
else we can do?



Since your cat is receiving a diuretic, speak to your vet about a potassium
supplement. Diuretics promote rapid urine formation and rapid urine
formation promotes increased potassium excretion which can lead to
hypokalemia. Hypokalemia and/or potassium depletion can have very serious
effects on the heart and especially the kidneys.

In addition to the diuretic, you might want to speak to your vet about
nitroglycerin ointment (placed on the inside of the pinna). Its vasodilating
effect lowers the filling pressures in the left atrium and left ventricle
which will help reduce edema and should allow you to taper the dose of
furosemide.

Also, ask your vet why he chose an ace inhibitor over the calcium channel
blocker diltiazem? Diltiazem is the drug of choice in cats with HCM. In
addition to all diltiazem's many other benefits, a lot of cats receiving
diltiazem no longer need diuretics. Diltiazem also reduces hypertrophy in
the left ventricle and left atrium dimensions in some cats and also reduces
the risk of thromboembolism.

Does your cat have mitral valve regurgitation and/or SAM (Systolic Anterior
Motion of the mitral valve)?

I've managed several cats with HCM and CHF secondary to HCM successfully
with this regimen. So, contrary to popular belief, cats with HCM can live
several years after diagnosis and have a good quality of life with the right
treatment.

I think you should consult a veterinary cardiologist.

Best of luck,

Phil


  #18  
Old April 14th 09, 10:12 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Eddy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default Cat losing body-moisture.

Phil P. wrote:
Since your cat is receiving a diuretic, speak to your vet about a potassium
supplement. Diuretics promote rapid urine formation and rapid urine
formation promotes increased potassium excretion which can lead to
hypokalemia. Hypokalemia and/or potassium depletion can have very serious
effects on the heart and especially the kidneys.

In addition to the diuretic, you might want to speak to your vet about
nitroglycerin ointment (placed on the inside of the pinna). Its vasodilating
effect lowers the filling pressures in the left atrium and left ventricle
which will help reduce edema and should allow you to taper the dose of
furosemide.

Also, ask your vet why he chose an ace inhibitor over the calcium channel
blocker diltiazem? Diltiazem is the drug of choice in cats with HCM. In
addition to all diltiazem's many other benefits, a lot of cats receiving
diltiazem no longer need diuretics. Diltiazem also reduces hypertrophy in
the left ventricle and left atrium dimensions in some cats and also reduces
the risk of thromboembolism.

Does your cat have mitral valve regurgitation and/or SAM (Systolic Anterior
Motion of the mitral valve)?

I've managed several cats with HCM and CHF secondary to HCM successfully
with this regimen. So, contrary to popular belief, cats with HCM can live
several years after diagnosis and have a good quality of life with the right
treatment.

I think you should consult a veterinary cardiologist.

Best of luck,

Phil

Thank you for all of the above, Phil.

Obviously broaching it with our vet will be a challenging thing to do,
but we will consider how best to do it.

The other reaction is to say that the current treatment has certainly
brought this cat back from the jaws of death. (While grinding up his
tablets on the kitchen work-surface this morning, he leapt up onto the
bench three times in his enthusiasm for his morning treat of "medication
with tuna"!)

Eddy.

  #19  
Old April 14th 09, 10:19 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Eddy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default Cat losing body-moisture.

jmc wrote:
Just had a random thought - is it possible the cat's been thin for a
while, but that it's been hidden by the oedema? If that's the case it
might not be a hydration problem. (question for the vet?)

Incidentally, if you increase his wet food, it'll increase his water
intake as well. And as to adding water, don't add a lot. Start with a
tiny bit, just enough to moisten. If that works, you can gradually
increase the amount, but it doesn't need to be soup.

jmc


And that's a very good thought, JMC. Thanks. Never occurred to us.
Yes, up until he was drained of half a pint of fluid from around his
lungs he did always seem significantly more bulbous in his lower trunk
that his healthy twin-brother. So you could well be right.

He certainly not suffering at the moment from the new "thinness". I
mean, he's now behaving with all the joy and liveliness of the cat he
was when he was a year old. Yesterday he even appeared back inside the
house with a large vole he had caught!

I think you could well be right.

Anyway, we have lowered his daily dose of furosemide by an eighth as a
result of our fears that he it was overkilling the oedema and the oedema
does not seem to be returning. We will keep monitoring, and talk to the
vet.

Eddy.

  #20  
Old April 23rd 09, 07:07 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Phil P.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,027
Default Cat losing body-moisture.


"Eddy" wrote in message
...

One of our cats, just four and a half years old, has recently been found
to be suffering from serious heart disease, namely "HCM". (The heart
has become enlarged and deformed,


What exactly do you mean by "deformed"? Is the shape of the heart globular
or like a valentine or lopsided valentine? Did your vet base her diagnosis
on x-rays or ultrasounds? Also, did you actually see the fluid that was
removed? Was it milky white or yellow to pink and opaque?

Phil


 




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