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A question about feeding canned food...



 
 
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  #101  
Old September 18th 04, 01:52 AM
Cheryl
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In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", kaeli
artfully composed this message within
on 17 Sep 2004:

when I fed her dinner I wet a
few of the bits with water so they'd become soft, and something
other than the crunchy stuff she considers food.


This sounds like something to try!
First just a little water, then gradually softer and softer...

Thanks for the idea!


LOL I hope you have better luck than I have.


--
Cheryl
  #106  
Old September 22nd 04, 07:17 PM
Steve Crane
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wrote in message ...
Steve wrote:
snip typcal Hills rhetoric and data that does nothing to prove
phosphorus *causes* renal failure

Not ONE WORD you posted shows that phosphorus "causes" renal failure n
healthy cats and, since I said that it would be contraindicated in cats
with kidney issues, how could you disagree? And what exactly is
excessive? Because Hills says it is it must be so? Where are the studies
that prove what level is "excessive" in healthy cats? And while you're
at it, explain how the perfect food for the cat (a mouse) is higher in
phosphorus than commercial cat foods yet is the optimal diet. Show some
evidence that higher phosphorus *causes* renal failure in healthy cats
or STFU.

Megan



Good Grief Megan,
NOBODY has ever said excessive levels of phos CAUSES renal
failure. That is not the point and never has been. The objective of
being healthy is to _avoid_ certain risks. I wear a seat belt because
there is a risk associated with not doing so. We know that there are
risks associated with certain behaviors - sky diving is a risk. The
act of sky diving does not mean that sky diving CAUSES your parachute
to fail and your body to hit the ground at 80 miles per hour. Feeding
a food with excessive levels of phosphorus is a clear, and totally
unnecessary risk, especially if you are feeding an older kitty and are
not getting the ERD testing done. It is a well known and well
documented RISK, not a cause.
When you can show me your crystal ball that allows you to know
which cats will eventually die of renal failure, then we can eliminate
the risk by feeding excessive phos diets to the segment of the
population of cats that will not eventually succumb to renal failure.
So far I haven't seen anybody with a crystal ball service letting you
know which cats are going to die of renal failure.
Renal failure is not detected until the kidney is +70% destroyed
and the disease is progressing toward death. You could be feeding a
cat with 50% of the kidney already destroyed and never know it. Your
cat with no symptoms and with perfect lab results could be slowly
dying of renal failure and you cannot even tell it is happening. At
this stage feeding a high phos diet will indeed CAUSE the acceleration
of the cats death.
  #107  
Old September 22nd 04, 07:17 PM
Steve Crane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote in message ...
Steve wrote:
snip typcal Hills rhetoric and data that does nothing to prove
phosphorus *causes* renal failure

Not ONE WORD you posted shows that phosphorus "causes" renal failure n
healthy cats and, since I said that it would be contraindicated in cats
with kidney issues, how could you disagree? And what exactly is
excessive? Because Hills says it is it must be so? Where are the studies
that prove what level is "excessive" in healthy cats? And while you're
at it, explain how the perfect food for the cat (a mouse) is higher in
phosphorus than commercial cat foods yet is the optimal diet. Show some
evidence that higher phosphorus *causes* renal failure in healthy cats
or STFU.

Megan



Good Grief Megan,
NOBODY has ever said excessive levels of phos CAUSES renal
failure. That is not the point and never has been. The objective of
being healthy is to _avoid_ certain risks. I wear a seat belt because
there is a risk associated with not doing so. We know that there are
risks associated with certain behaviors - sky diving is a risk. The
act of sky diving does not mean that sky diving CAUSES your parachute
to fail and your body to hit the ground at 80 miles per hour. Feeding
a food with excessive levels of phosphorus is a clear, and totally
unnecessary risk, especially if you are feeding an older kitty and are
not getting the ERD testing done. It is a well known and well
documented RISK, not a cause.
When you can show me your crystal ball that allows you to know
which cats will eventually die of renal failure, then we can eliminate
the risk by feeding excessive phos diets to the segment of the
population of cats that will not eventually succumb to renal failure.
So far I haven't seen anybody with a crystal ball service letting you
know which cats are going to die of renal failure.
Renal failure is not detected until the kidney is +70% destroyed
and the disease is progressing toward death. You could be feeding a
cat with 50% of the kidney already destroyed and never know it. Your
cat with no symptoms and with perfect lab results could be slowly
dying of renal failure and you cannot even tell it is happening. At
this stage feeding a high phos diet will indeed CAUSE the acceleration
of the cats death.
  #108  
Old September 22nd 04, 07:48 PM
Steve Crane
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(jamie) wrote in message ...
Steve Crane wrote:

Here's the decision you must make.
Do I feed a food with excesses of phosphorus in order to justify some
other emotional need/desire/preference I have, even when that
need/desire/preference cannot be proven to show any benefit?


According to the lists at
http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/canfood.html
http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/dryfood.html
The chicken, turkey, chicken & herring, and turkey & salmon
flavors of Wellness don't have significantly more phosphorus
than most of the varieties of Science Diet. The mixed seafood
flavors have more, but so do a few of the Science Diet dry varieties.


Actually according to the canned website above the Wellness products
average 201 mgs/100 kcals and the Science Diet products average 160
mg/ 100kcal, that an increase of 25.62% mroe phosphorus in the
Wellness canned foods. 25% is a significant difference.

BTW, Hills prescription M/D canned is higher in carb than Science
Diet canned kitten food. Why?


Feline m/d canned contains 15.7% carbs, Feline kitten liver & chicken
contains 16.0% carbs, Feline Kitten Ocean Fish contains 13.1% carbs.
The objective of m/d is to drive the cat into metabolic ketosis. Once
that state is reached it does not matter what the carb level is.
Feline Kitten also contains vastly higher levels of calcium and
phosphorus to meet a growing kittens needs, which Feline m/d does not.
Phos in Feline Kitten is at 0.99% versus m/d at .069% DMB basis.
Feline Kitten is designed for a growing kitten, Feline m/d is desinged
to induce metabolic ketosis in an adult cat which should not be
getting growth levels of calcium, phosphorus etc.
  #109  
Old September 22nd 04, 07:48 PM
Steve Crane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(jamie) wrote in message ...
Steve Crane wrote:

Here's the decision you must make.
Do I feed a food with excesses of phosphorus in order to justify some
other emotional need/desire/preference I have, even when that
need/desire/preference cannot be proven to show any benefit?


According to the lists at
http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/canfood.html
http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/dryfood.html
The chicken, turkey, chicken & herring, and turkey & salmon
flavors of Wellness don't have significantly more phosphorus
than most of the varieties of Science Diet. The mixed seafood
flavors have more, but so do a few of the Science Diet dry varieties.


Actually according to the canned website above the Wellness products
average 201 mgs/100 kcals and the Science Diet products average 160
mg/ 100kcal, that an increase of 25.62% mroe phosphorus in the
Wellness canned foods. 25% is a significant difference.

BTW, Hills prescription M/D canned is higher in carb than Science
Diet canned kitten food. Why?


Feline m/d canned contains 15.7% carbs, Feline kitten liver & chicken
contains 16.0% carbs, Feline Kitten Ocean Fish contains 13.1% carbs.
The objective of m/d is to drive the cat into metabolic ketosis. Once
that state is reached it does not matter what the carb level is.
Feline Kitten also contains vastly higher levels of calcium and
phosphorus to meet a growing kittens needs, which Feline m/d does not.
Phos in Feline Kitten is at 0.99% versus m/d at .069% DMB basis.
Feline Kitten is designed for a growing kitten, Feline m/d is desinged
to induce metabolic ketosis in an adult cat which should not be
getting growth levels of calcium, phosphorus etc.
  #110  
Old September 22nd 04, 11:06 PM
jamie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Steve Crane wrote:
(jamie) wrote in message ...
Steve Crane wrote:

Here's the decision you must make.
Do I feed a food with excesses of phosphorus in order to justify some
other emotional need/desire/preference I have, even when that
need/desire/preference cannot be proven to show any benefit?


According to the lists at
http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/canfood.html
http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/jmpeerson/dryfood.html
The chicken, turkey, chicken & herring, and turkey & salmon
flavors of Wellness don't have significantly more phosphorus
than most of the varieties of Science Diet. The mixed seafood
flavors have more, but so do a few of the Science Diet dry varieties.


Actually according to the canned website above the Wellness products
average 201 mgs/100 kcals and the Science Diet products average 160
mg/ 100kcal, that an increase of 25.62% mroe phosphorus in the
Wellness canned foods. 25% is a significant difference.


Playing math games by adding up all the Hills and Wellness flavors
and dividing by the number of flavors offered does not negate
what I stated.

Several of the Wellness flavors contain 175-183mg/kcals, while the
Science Diet canned Light Adult, Savory Cuts flavors and Senior Savory
Cuts flavors are in the same range. Yet the *senior* Savory Cuts is
*not* among the lower of Science Diet canned flavors in phosphorus,
as the 3 "Adult" flavors and the "Senior" that are not Savory Cuts
are lower.

Only 2 of 16 types of Science Diet Dry are lower in phosphorus than
the flavors I mentioned of Wellness canned, and quite a few of them
are a good deal higher, some well over 200. Same for Hills prescription
dry -- only a couple lower and several well over 200.

That said, my cats *were* very happy and healthy on Science Diet dry
Adult and Sensitive Stomach until they became elderly. The major
disappointment was that several vets told me that a diet of Science
diet dry would prevent FUS/FLUTD, but poor Gideon eventually developed
a bladder full of struvite crystals on it.

--
jamie )

"There's a seeker born every minute."

 




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