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  #41  
Old August 18th 05, 05:59 AM
Kreisleriana
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On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:40:35 -0500, Karen
yodeled:

in article , jmcquown at
wrote on 8/17/05 10:27 PM:

Needless to say, you are correct. I don't know about other folks,
but my dog - Sampson (RB) - was an indoor dog; he only went out to
use the potty.

Jill


But you do mean you took him out for a walk regularly where he could
have a run off the lead now and again?

Tweed

I once had a house where I could let him run in the fenced yard for
a bit. When it snowed, I went out and dug a trench in the snow for
him to be able to poop and pee. Otherwise he never ran off the
leash. I walked with him... his lead extended to about 20 feet. I
have always lived too close to
a busy street to let him run off the lead. He lived 18 years so
apparently
I did something the right way

Jill


There is definitely a cultural difference between the USA and the UK
then. It would not be seen as acceptable in the UK for a dog never to
run off lead even if only at the weekend on a visit outside town.
A shelter here would not allow a dog adoption if it had to stay on a
lead all its life. They would rightly say you do not have the
facilities.

Tweed


I never lived anywhere a dog could run off a lead without encountering a
road and not be subject to being hit (by cars). My Sampson didn't seem to
mind being on a lead. He just peed and pooped and then we went back inside.
He curled up on the couch, chased the tennis ball and was otherwise a tiny
lap-dog

Jill


In Lincoln they have a special Dog park. It's a biiig area where people come
with their dogs and let them off to run that is all fenced in. It's right
down the street. It's extremely popular. I suspect that it is also a "great
place to meet guys/chicks". But people come in droves everyday. I was
wondering if other cities had such a place.



We have dog parks here too (NYC), and they are hoppin' scenes. Issues
surrounding dogs in the city are very passionate here. The big parks
have special off-leash hours set aside. But there still always seem
to be conflicts between dog people and people who bring their little
kids to the park, and are afraid of off-leash doggies. It makes me
think, don't any people with kids around here have dogs? And vice
versa.


Theresa
Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh
My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com
  #42  
Old August 18th 05, 07:57 AM
jmcquown
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Exocat wrote:
wrote
It seems that in the US people are much more likely to force cats to
stay indoors, or take them out on a leash (something I've NEVER heard
of over here and to be honest I think people would laugh over here if
they saw a cat on a lead, but fair play for succeeding in training a
cat to do it), or build these enclosure thingies for them, to protect
the wildlife, also I've never seen one over here.


I'm in quiet rural Cornwall (UK). Having lost my beloved Kensey to
beheading by a farm implement towed behind a tractor (so much wider
than a car so could catch him waiting in the hedgerow) on the
quietest of country lanes, despite his 8 years of traffic experience
including the occasional very near miss/brush, I swore "never again".
Bandit, whom I got from CP aged around 2 and was experienced in the
"out" isn't very confident and lurks within yards of the house, so
moves freely during the day. Pericles (RB from the FIP virus),
Snowball and soon Claudius was/is/will be harness & flexilead trained
and did/does/will go "walkies" around the garden and even the village
as & when they want. Big red Pericles was a talking point in our
community as he led me for miles around the local footpaths etc.

With our local keen gardeners all being hostile to cats (digging &
pooping) & using lethal slug pellets etc. it isn't only traffic &
foxes that can kill, even in the most peaceful rural area.

So I've adopted the safety-first American approach. Nearly everyone I
talk to knows _someone_ who leash-walks a cat, esp. in towns etc. so
it seems to be getting more common.

If I could resolve border issues with my neighbours I'd try to instal
a cat-proof fence around the whole (small) back garden, but with
dividing lines being theirs & consisting of sheds etc. it's
practically impossible. My "boys" thus get a quieter life than they
might like ideally, but certainly a longer one.

Purrs

Gordon, Bandit, Snowball, Claudius & Raki


Excellent, Gordon! I'm sure Bandit, Snowball, Claudius (cute little
bugger!) and Raki thank you from the bottom of their hearts. We Americans
aren't all that stupid, are we?

Jill


  #43  
Old August 18th 05, 08:59 AM
John Doe
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troll

mlabofski yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Path: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com!newsdbm02.news.prodigy. com!newsdst01.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.pro digy.com!prodigy.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!pr odigy.net!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!g44g2 000cwa.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
From: mlabofski yahoo.co.uk
Newsgroups: alt.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats.health+behav,rec.pets. cats.anecdotes
Subject: Indoor cats
Date: 17 Aug 2005 11:07:05 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com
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Xref: newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com alt.pets.cats:33933 rec.pets.cats.health+behav:388442 rec.pets.cats.anecdotes:334520

First let me say I'm not being antagonistic, I'm just interested in the
(apparent) culture difference between the US & the UK as regards our
feline friends.

With regard to letting cats out: All the cats I know go outside, they
(usually) learn their way back home from their local neighbourhood,
they don't go too far but suss out gardens, wildlife, other cats and
people, and hopefully realise that traffic isn't for playing with.
There's not too many birds in London and no-one seems to care about the
pigeon population anyway. Some get lost, some get hit by traffic (mine
for example isn't allowed out the front to the road, only the back
garden where he doesn't seem to want to climb the fence to escape from
but if he did I'd let him).

It seems natural for a cat to want to venture outside, and to me it's
cruel to keep them inside (unless they're not interested).

It seems that in the US people are much more likely to force cats to
stay indoors, or take them out on a leash (something I've NEVER heard
of over here and to be honest I think people would laugh over here if
they saw a cat on a lead, but fair play for succeeding in training a
cat to do it), or build these enclosure thingies for them, to protect
the wildlife, also I've never seen one over here.

It's interesting, do you think it's a cultural thing? How long have
people in the US been doing these things? Perhaps it's not the general
population, just people in cat groups As I say, I wasn't saying
that either way is right, it's just interesting how people do things
differently.

Marcia
Lord Otis's slave and minder







  #44  
Old August 18th 05, 09:17 AM
wafflycat
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"Exocat" wrote in message
...


I'm in quiet rural Cornwall (UK). Having lost my beloved Kensey to
beheading by a farm implement towed behind a tractor (so much wider than a
car so could catch him waiting in the hedgerow) on the quietest of country
lanes, despite his 8 years of traffic experience including the occasional
very near miss/brush, I swore "never again". Bandit, whom I got from CP
aged around 2 and was experienced in the "out" isn't very confident and
lurks within yards of the house, so moves freely during the day. Pericles
(RB from the FIP virus), Snowball and soon Claudius was/is/will be harness
& flexilead trained and did/does/will go "walkies" around the garden and
even the village as & when they want. Big red Pericles was a talking point
in our community as he led me for miles around the local footpaths etc.

With our local keen gardeners all being hostile to cats (digging &
pooping) & using lethal slug pellets etc. it isn't only traffic & foxes
that can kill, even in the most peaceful rural area.

So I've adopted the safety-first American approach. Nearly everyone I talk
to knows _someone_ who leash-walks a cat, esp. in towns etc. so it seems
to be getting more common.


Living in quiet, rural Norfolk, I don't know of anyone round here who leash
walks a cat. Luckily my neighbours are not cat-hostile, they are cat
friendly. Waffles had her altercation many moons ago with a vehicle. Life is
a risk. Be it the life of a cat or a person. I *know* Waffles would not take
to an indoor only life - she goes stir-crazy. Marble is a feral rescue - and
his temperament is one where he loves being outside too - same with
Francis - all spend the days with free access to outside (they come and go
via open windows) and come in at night. I seek to take reasonable steps to
minimise risk - they are neutered/speyed, innoculated, treated
preventatively for fleas, ticks..regular vet checks, I live in a quiet area,
but there are no guarantees in life. It'll break my heart the days my cats
die, but that's life. There is only one thing that is certain in life:
death - we cannot avoid the grim reaper forever, whatever species we are. In
the meantime, I see that they are happy cats, being cats, doing cattish
things. But yes, there is a risk that one or more will have an early death,
but they will have had *good* cattish lives, doing cattish things, and it'll
be me that's left sad. But that's what life is about.

Saying that, I choose not to put my cats at what I feel to be too much
risk - I don't live next to a motorway. and when I was house hunting, my
cats' needs were at the top of the list alongside human needs.

If I could resolve border issues with my neighbours I'd try to instal a
cat-proof fence around the whole (small) back garden, but with dividing
lines being theirs & consisting of sheds etc. it's practically impossible.
My "boys" thus get a quieter life than they might like ideally, but
certainly a longer one.


Longer does not always equate to happy. I'm *not* saying that this is the
case for your individual cats, but in general terms. The way I look at it
is - there are 3500 people killed on UK roads each year - with tens of
thousands more injured each year - yet we still drive. There are people
killed and injured in our homes each year, with tens of thousands more
injured each year. Life is a risk. I can take steps to avoid some really
nasty ones (I choose not to swim in shark-infested waters), and some of them
I can't (I still drive even though the figures for road death & injury are
appalling, but I could never leave the house & Internet shop & work entirely
from home...).

I can entirely understand why many of our American friends don't allow their
cats outside - they do have bears, coyotes, rattlers, rabies... we don't
over here. But I can also understand why some over here do not allow their
cats to have outside access. I do think, however, that if a cat does not
have outside access, then the owner *must* do things to the indoor
environment to make it stimulating and challenging for the cats so they do
not die of boredom... slowly... over many years... simply as a result of the
fear of their human owners. Cats have brains too :-)

Cheers, helen s


Purrs

Gordon, Bandit, Snowball, Claudius & Raki




  #45  
Old August 18th 05, 09:43 AM
Exocat
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"jmcquown" wrote
Excellent, Gordon! I'm sure Bandit, Snowball, Claudius (cute little
bugger!) and Raki thank you from the bottom of their hearts. We
Americans
aren't all that stupid, are we?


I'm sure IQ & nationality aren't necessarily related :-)
As a society that allows declawing & grants too much priority to the
needs of the military/industrial complex v those of the population
as a whole, I can think of a few upgrades for Uncle Sam Land.

But of course that's true of absolutely every nation state: plenty
of things could be done better.

More about cats in my reply to Helen's post on this subject.

Purrs

G & the FF


  #46  
Old August 18th 05, 09:48 AM
Phil P.
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wrote in message
oups.com...

It seems natural for a cat to want to venture outside, and to me it's
cruel to keep them inside (unless they're not interested).


Its a cultural thing. Most (60%) cat owners in the U.S. feel that its
cruel to expose cats to the stress and dangers outside of a safe home. An
outdoor cat lives a more stressful life than an indoor cat.

If you know a little about cats, and if you're sensitive to your cat's
needs, you can provide your cat with a rich, happy, healthy, and safe life
indoors.

Phil



  #47  
Old August 18th 05, 09:54 AM
Exocat
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"wafflycat" waffles*A*T*v21net*D*O*T*co*D*O*T*uk wrote

Living in quiet, rural Norfolk, I don't know of anyone round here who
leash walks a cat. Luckily my neighbours are not cat-hostile, they are
cat friendly. Waffles had her altercation many moons ago with a
vehicle. Life is a risk. Be it the life of a cat or a person. I *know*
Waffles would not take to an indoor only life - she goes stir-crazy.
Marble is a feral rescue - and his temperament is one where he loves
being outside too - same with Francis - all spend the days with free
access to outside (they come and go via open windows) and come in at
night.


Quite understood: Bandit, who was accustomed to the Out, still comes &
goes freely in daylight hours. But I did a quick mental survey of
casualties
just in our immediate area (100 yards each way from home) and found:

In the last 12 months 4 local cats have been killed in our quiet lanes.
The year before it was 2.
The year before that another 2.

That's about 25% of the feline population!

In the same 3 years Bandit has been attacked within 10 yards of our
back door by 2 different dominant Toms (1 now in the above roadkill
stats, 1 moved away & run over in a different village) requiring
vet. treatment, and also about 8 times, less seriously, by neutered
but still attempting-to-dominate neighbours' pets. He still wants
to go out and I let him.

However, for kittens who have never known the "Out" the chances
of mortality are too high, in my assessment of the risk. They still
go out on 8-metre (8.8 yard) flexileads and can do everything in
the garden - including hunting - that a free-roamer does, except
with a limited range.

I feel this is the best compromise for now, but haven't given up
hopes of catproof-fencing the garden eventually.

Purrs

G & the FF


  #48  
Old August 18th 05, 10:01 AM
Phil P.
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"MaryL" -OUT-THE-LITTER wrote in message
news:fhQMe.2585$Ix4.377@okepread03...


My vet agrees that the time can be extended significantly for indoor-only
cats, especially those that have previously had a series of rabies shots.
However, he still stresses distemper shots because it is airborne. Do you
agree?


Parvovirus (distemper) is not an airborne virus but it can remain viable and
infectious in the environment for 1 year. The parvovirus vaccine is
extremely effective and confers *solid* protection for at least 8 years if
not for life. Parvovirus (panleukopenia) is primarily a disease of kittens-
adults are very rarely infected, and when they are, its almost invariably
subclinical.

Phil



  #49  
Old August 18th 05, 11:58 AM
Ivor Jones
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"Dr.Carla,DVM" wrote in
message news:1PPMe.35682$084.17489@attbi_s22
Oh and before I get off my soap box, I forgot, indoor
only cats don't need vaccinations unless they spend time
at kennels, etc. Vaccinations in cats have been shown to cause VASTS
(vaccine associated soft tissue sarcomas) or tumors. Its
not clear yet which part of the vaccines are causing this
terrible outcome. There is a new safer rabies shot for cats, ask your
vet
about it next time you go for vaccinations.


One of the great advantages of living in the UK is we don't have rabies.
We also don't have coyotes and other predators that seem to roam all over
the USA (I've never seen a coyote in San Francisco, but I'm willing to
accept they may be there..!) so our cats have a far less stressful outdoor
life.

For my part, if I were unable to allow a cat outdoors through risk of
predators or any other reason, I simply wouldn't have a cat. I would not
move into accommodation where a cat was not permitted. If I *were* forced
to live somewhere where indoor only cats were permitted, I would make sure
to choose one from a rescue shelter that was *known* to be content with
such a life. I would also give priority under those circumstances to a cat
with FIV, which I would be reluctant to allow out anyway in case an
encounter with another cat passed on the infection.

I have never heard of this VASTS you mention, could you give a site with
more information, please..?

Ivor


  #50  
Old August 18th 05, 12:02 PM
Ivor Jones
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"223rem" wrote in message
news:t4PMe.35637$084.25831@attbi_s22
America is obsessed with safety. For example, everything
has to be 'safe for the children'. Political correctness
is another national obsession. Of course, the fact
is that we are a violent, inhumane society.


No, America is obsessed with ligitation, or fear of litigation. Every time
someone so much as sneezes out of place, they're slapped with a lawsuit.
Well that's how it appears to us over here in the UK anyway.

It's like speed limits, they say you have to keep your speed below 30mph
in case you hit a child. What the hell is the child doing in the middle of
the road in the first place..? Don't their parents educate them..?

Ivor


 




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