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  #11  
Old July 31st 03, 01:47 AM
-L.
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(paghat) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(-L.) wrote:

(paghat) wrote in message
...
[someone said]


Such laws are not enforced in most jurisdictions. I never had more
rogue cat problems than I did in San Jose.


Oh, they're enforced now all righty.


Not in San Jose, as of last March. I lived there three years and
never had any law enforcement agent do anything about the 10 or 12
rogue cats in our neighborhood.

But it really depends on how loony
the neighbors are & whether they're sufficiently cat-hating to insist to
police or animal control that no cats be permitted to lounge on the
sidewalk off their property.


Leash laws kill cats in two ways.


Nope. Owners who do not contain their cats are the ones responsible
for killing them. Responsibility starts at home. I love my cats
dearly, but rogue cats are a nuisance, and it is the people who allow
their cats to interfere with other's enjoyment of their OWN property
are that to blame, if their cats are caught and destroyed as a result
of their negligence.


As point of fact it is the collar that kills cats, & no degree of
responsibility makes it safe to collar a cat.


I agree that a cat should not ever be collar4ed, break-away or not.

It's why good cat collars
are break-away like pop-beads,


My point was, break-away collars injure and kill cats as well.

& that's why laws should not permit a lost
cat to be summarily destroyed.


If the cat is microchipped, this sin't an issue.

The lack of collar may NOT be the owners
fault. And if you think the fence has ever been made that cats cannot
climb over, you've really been doing a very good job of not observing
cats.


http://www.catfencein.com/

It does a damn good job of keeping my cats in the yard, and other cats
out. I have cats and when they go outside, I go with them. They are
not allowed to go outside my fenced property. I expect my neighbors
to do the same.



Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
themselves on trees and fences.


Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.


But that is what the law requires.


The law does not require tethering a cat and leaving it unattended.

besides, leashing and tethering are separate acts. I walked my cats
on leashes prior to living in Oregon because I didn't have suitable
places to allow them to roam - they jumped the fence, and since we
didn't own the home, I couldn't install the barriers.

But anyway, it is the collar itself
that can get caught on branches & hang a cat. Since no fence holds a cat,


A fence will hold a cat, especially if the owner is present to make
sure the cat doesn't foil the barrier.


containment laws means it can never be let outside at all unless tethered.


That's ridiculous. The issue is you want to allow cats outside
*unattended*. Ok. I have given you a system that works for me (and
other people I know) - a 6 ft. cedar fence with a CAT BARRIER. I
still don't trust my cats outside unattended because I fear they will
escape although they have not to date. You have to accept
responsibility for your pet. Allowing it to roam is not responsible,
and YES society has the right to make you responsible for the actions
of your companion animals.


Both a non-break-away collar OR a tether can kill a cat, but without one
or the other, a cat can "escape" to no further than the next yard, & be at
complete risk of being destroyed, and/or the owner fined because the cat
behaves as a normal cat.

For this reason a good cat collar has "pop
bead" break-away feature so that when it struggles in the hanging
position, the collar comes off before it strangles to death.


"Break-away" collars can cause death or injury as well. One of the
worst degloving injuries I have ever seen was caused by a "break-away"
collar.


An argument that furthers the idea that the greater "responsibility" is to
not collar cats at all.


Like I said, I don't believe in collaring cats.



Then it is
trapped for wandering free, taken to animal control, and destroyed.

The real reason so many legislators want these laws is NOT because of a
sudden burgeoning of hatred for cats. It's a windfall of hidden taxes.
Every time Bush cuts taxes for the richest 2% in the country, everyone
else gets higher local fees, fines, liscenses to pick up the slack --
fees, fines, & liscenses that regulate every aspect of daily life. The
Illinois legislation will permit multiple fees be charged every one who
has a cat even if their cat never roams free. High fees that will be
raised higher year by year.


While I agree with your politics, one can rebel by simply not
registering their cats. If your cats are controlled and you take
responsibility for them, not registering them is never a problem.

The public health & well being is NOT the real
consideration of (as present example) Illinois legisation.


Cats are not currently a threat to public health. Some are, however,
vectors for toxoplasmosis which is serious only for the
immunocompromised and pregnant. (Although the primary route of
infection in humans is undercooked meat).


Zoonotic diseases from cats number around 100.


Yes, but how many of those are a threat to public health? The only
disease that is considered worthy of warning by the CDC is
toxoplasmosis.


While immunocompromised
individuals (individuals with HIV or anyone receiving chemotherapy or
allergy-prone or asthmatic) are at far greater risk of outright death by
kitty, but death is the slightest component of a frightening public health
picture. I dunno that I should correct your misinformation as I like cats
& don't want to further arm the legions who apparently think the only good
cat is a caged cat. MANY bacteriums (but few viruses) spread readily to
humans from cats, especially cats manifesting overt symptoms of illness
such as diarrhea. The so-called "Cat scratch fever" is EXTREMELY common &
probably no child reaches teenage years without at least one of the
infections associated with cat scratches, though it is never specifically
diagnosed but generically treated. One study found that in shelters, 40%
of cats carry the Rochalimaea bacteria that is the key cause catscratch
fever.


If it (or other zoonotic diseases) was a threat to public health,
there would be an aggressive campaign to eradicate the disease in cats
and humans, or at least, warnings would be disseminated as they are
for toxo. Those programs simply do not exist because the threat from
the disease is small.

snip

And so on. That's not even a tenth of the possibilities. Some are rare,
some are extremely common, some are severe & life-threatening,


Which are "severe and life threatening" AND pose a threat to public
health in the US?


many pass
quickly enough even without a trip to the doctor. Virtually everyone who
has ever had pets has had at least one or two zoonotic diseases in their
lifetime whether they know it or not. In the main it's no more frightening
than having had the mumps when a kid & no reason to kill or restrict all
cats. But for the many people in this world who are already cat-haters,


People who let their cats roam do way more to fuel the fires of the
cat-haters of the world than any perceived threat to public health.


it's just one more reason it's a "good" thing that cat-leash laws are
spreading like wildfire so that a cat's normal three or four property
territory will soon be illegal in most places.


Good, as it should be.


plus
the cost of legally required microchipping, because the Illinois
legislation also proposes to require microchipping of all cats. Note that
microchipping protects animals only if an owner signs up & pays for a 24
hour service for tracking lost animals;


Microchipping is inexpensive and *essential* for anyone who loves
their cat, and wants to get it back, if it were ever to be lost.


Cats rarely become "lost"


You haven't worked in rescue much, have you?

& microchipping is not essential. A normal cat
ranges over three to five properties & always knows its way home. The ONLY
reason the Illinois legislation will require microchipping is so the owner
of the cat rounded up for going next door can be fined.


good. Identifying the "owners" of problem cats takes the blame off of
use who abide by the law.

Cat leash laws do
not make it a requirement that the cat be cared for properly until
returned to its owner.


If a cat is turned into the proper authority, they have an obligation
to keep the cat under standard conditions until it is claimed,
rehomed, or destroyed.

Raising revenue is the real purpose, & the safety
of the public or of the animals is extremely secondary.


Seems to me that people who let their cats roam wantonly are the ones
who are unconcerned for the safety of their animals...

Which is why
funding for shelters gets cut even as the law demands more animals be
rounded up.

The issue of killing birds has some credibility. The issue of roaming cats
being injured by dogs, cars, or each other, has some credibility.


Or humans

But the
idea that microchipping is necessary because cats easily become lost is
absurd,


I didn't say they "easily become lost". I said if they were to become
lost. A microchip is the only safe way to identify a cat - not
collars with tags, which you yourself admit is undesirable for good
reason.

I worked for a feline specialty veterinarian and cannot tell you how
many times people "found a new stray" in their neighborhood, and
brought it in to us for care. Our policy was to scan it for microchip,
and if one was found, the registry was contacted and the cat reunited
with the original owner. Microchipping works. I'm damn glad my cats
are microchipped. If you let your cat roam and have irate neighbors,
they might just pick up your friendly kitty and drop him off in
another neighborhood, or another town. The only way you are going to
get your cat back is if it is microchipped.


& it is not the reason microchipping is being legislated. It is
being legislated SOLELY so that the owner of the captured & possibly
destroyed cat can be fined for revenue purposes.


Sorry, but having worked in the rescue arena for over 15 years, I can
tell you that not all animal control people are heartless witches.
Most want nothing more than to help reunite animals with their owners.
Nobody likes to euthanize an animal.


I'm sorry, but cats *are* a problem for many people. Just as I
wouldn't allow my dogs, cats, snakes, turtle, husband, child, or
myself, to urinate or defecate on, or otherwise destroy, your
property, I expect the same level of respect from my fellow citizens.
Some sense of decorum must be maintained.


ANd there's the real problem. Very little wildlife is permitted to survive
around humans because humans hate wildlife.


Cats aren't wildlife.

All wildlife is re-defined as
"vermin" and rooted out of the environment, everything paved over.


Not where I live.

People
have already killed most of the wildlife, now an increasing percentage of
people & places are seeing what can be done to get rid of domestic animals
too.


Domestic animals are not a problem if they are well cared-for by their
responsible "owners". You cannot *pretend* to take responsibility for
the life of another living creature, and then shirk all of that
responsibility.


The day will come when "there are songbirds pooping in my garden!"
will allow the bird protection act to be overturned & all birds will go
the way of passenger pigeons, except for any that can be microchipped &
caged & benefit the government through increasing numbers of increasingly
expensive taxes, liscenses, & fees.


Oh, please. Now you are being melodramatic.

Cats and dogs are not wild animals. You cannot expect them to be
given the same protection under the law. They are part of an
artificial system which HUMANS created, and HUMANS have to be
responsible for them.

-L.
  #12  
Old July 31st 03, 01:49 AM
-L.
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"Some One" wrote in message .ca...
Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
themselves on trees and fences.


Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.


Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.


That's debatable. Some cats don't like going outdoors, some do. I
believe if you can allow your cats outdoors responsibly, and it is
safe to do so, then they should be allowed to go outdoors.

-L.
  #13  
Old July 31st 03, 01:49 AM
-L.
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Some One" wrote in message .ca...
Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
themselves on trees and fences.


Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.


Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.


That's debatable. Some cats don't like going outdoors, some do. I
believe if you can allow your cats outdoors responsibly, and it is
safe to do so, then they should be allowed to go outdoors.

-L.
  #14  
Old August 5th 03, 06:06 PM
Arthur L. Rubin
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"Some One" wrote in message .ca...
Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
themselves on trees and fences.


Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.


Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.


Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.
  #15  
Old August 5th 03, 06:06 PM
Arthur L. Rubin
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"Some One" wrote in message .ca...
Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
themselves on trees and fences.


Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.


Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.


Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.
  #16  
Old August 5th 03, 06:23 PM
Alex Longfield
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i have to say, since losing my baby boy, Sherlock, to a car a few weeks ago,
I am so tempted to keep my other cats indoors, one is an outside cat, one is
inside because she is pregnant, but all so unaware of the cars on the road
and i have since caught Oliver (his brother) rolling around in the middle of
the road.

I can understand the belief of improving the quantity now and i also don't
believe quality is majorly affected by not being outside so long as you
adapt their surrounding to be stimulating and happy.


"Arthur L. Rubin" wrote in message
om...
"Some One" wrote in message

.ca...
Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
themselves on trees and fences.

Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.


Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.


Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.



  #17  
Old August 5th 03, 06:23 PM
Alex Longfield
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Posts: n/a
Default

i have to say, since losing my baby boy, Sherlock, to a car a few weeks ago,
I am so tempted to keep my other cats indoors, one is an outside cat, one is
inside because she is pregnant, but all so unaware of the cars on the road
and i have since caught Oliver (his brother) rolling around in the middle of
the road.

I can understand the belief of improving the quantity now and i also don't
believe quality is majorly affected by not being outside so long as you
adapt their surrounding to be stimulating and happy.


"Arthur L. Rubin" wrote in message
om...
"Some One" wrote in message

.ca...
Second because cats on leashes frequently hang
themselves on trees and fences.

Any cat owner who tethers their cat is a complete idiot.


Any anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time is a sadist.


Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.



  #18  
Old August 6th 03, 12:36 AM
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In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Arthur L. Rubin wrote:
Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.


Well, I'd say quantity, quality I'd not say that. There's just so much to
see and explore outside where indoors everything is the same most the
time.

That being said, I think my cats live happy lives indoors though one would
really love to go outdoors. He finds thingsthat make him happy though.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
  #19  
Old August 6th 03, 12:36 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
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In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Arthur L. Rubin wrote:
Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.


Well, I'd say quantity, quality I'd not say that. There's just so much to
see and explore outside where indoors everything is the same most the
time.

That being said, I think my cats live happy lives indoors though one would
really love to go outdoors. He finds thingsthat make him happy though.

Alice

--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
  #20  
Old August 6th 03, 01:11 AM
paghat
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In article , wrote:

In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Arthur L. Rubin

wrote:
Anyone who keeps a cat indoors 100% of the time -- believes
in improving the quality (and quantity) of life in the cat.


Well, I'd say quantity, quality I'd not say that. There's just so much to
see and explore outside where indoors everything is the same most the
time.

That being said, I think my cats live happy lives indoors though one would
really love to go outdoors. He finds thingsthat make him happy though.

Alice


I suspect cats who've never been outdoors are totally happy with their
restrained way of life. But I've seen cats that once had an outdoors but
later ended up apartment cats, andtheir longing looks outside, and their
recurring attempts to make a break for the outside when the door opens,
makes it fairly obvious they're dissatisfied.

My sadness in seeing the cat leash laws spreading like wildfire is that
cats were the one wild animal that we domesticated without pens, cages, or
ropes. After a few thousand years of ranging around our homes and always
returning to us, now outside forces (OUR OWN overpopulation and
increasingly crowded conditions) impose decreasing liberty on an animal
that in no way requires these restrictions for themselves or for their
keepers to be happy with them. It is largely people who either dislike all
cats, or at least dislike cats other than their own, who have decided all
cats must be imprisoned or leashed, making even so little as lounging on
the public sidewalk in front of their own homes punishable under law.

But as I said, I'm old enough I remember when chickens and dogs ran loose
in the neighborhood, with few or no repurcussions. Being forced to
imprison our cats is just one more free choice whittled away from us. The
day will come when anyone who refuses to pay the Air Tax will be arrested
and placed in the suffocation tank, with our heirs still responsible for
the cremation costs & ash disposal tax. Nothing we take for granted, not
even the freedom to breathe, is off bounds for restriction & taxation.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl:
http://www.paghat.com/
 




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