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Crane, Gaubster, PhilP
"Ann Martin" wrote in message
My question is, what are you all so frightened of that you have taken such a defensive stand? You all seemed concerned that I am making all kinds of money from my books and television radio shows. You insinuate that all information in my books are nothing more then scare tactics. Let's look at the pet food industry, an industry that makes billions per year. What is this industry doing? Lying to the pet owner's, brain washing them into believing that feeding commercial pet foods, garbage, is the only way they can have a healthy pet. In the meantime these people, the pet owner's, are incurring thousands of dollars in vet bills from feeding this garbage. Ads depict steaks, whole grains, quality vegetables and fats going into these products when in reality what is going into these pet foods is garbage that would otherwise end up in landfill or be incinerated. All these people have stated that this industry is regulated. Where is the proof? Show me one document that gives any indication that ingredients in pet foods are regulated. One idiot stated that the USDA/FSIS regulated the ingredients used in pet foods. WRONG! they have no input at all. The FDA/CVM oversees any drugs that are used in pet foods and the labeling text. NOTHING ELSE. The AAFCO sets guidelines and it is up to each state to adopt these guidlines. Very few states actually do and if they do this group, comprised of many from the pet food industry, has no input at all into the ingredients used. If you follow the AAFCO guidlelines, as I have pointed out in a previous post, the foods can contain such things as "hydrolyzed hair," dehydrated garbage," "dehydrated food waste," "dried ruminant waste," "dried swine waste," "undried processed animal waste products,". NOW WOULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE SOME DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO REGULATES THE INGREDIENTS THAT ARE IN COMMERCIAL FOOD. THE PET FOOD COMPANIES, THAT'S WHO REGULATES THIS INDUSTRY. You ramble on about the nutrient value of the ingredients in pet foods but you neglect to mention what these ingredients actually are. You can derive nutrients from nearly anything including garbage. To that garbage add a substantial amount of vitamins, minerals and you want us to believe that you will be feeding your pet a "complete and balanced diet." You have persisted in asking for documentation as to the information I have posted. I've provided that including the e-mail from the USDA/FSIS stating they have no input at all into the ingredients in pet food. I've quote from letter received from the FDA/CVM as to their knowledge that pets ARE used in commercial pet foods and from David Dzanis, DVM, formerly with the FDA/CVM who stated that the AAFCO ingredient definitions applied to both livestock feed and PET FOOD. Crane wrote that he had spoken to Halo, the company that makes 'Spots Stew. "I spent nearly an hour on the phone with this lady and found out she had never had the food analyzed and could not even begin to give me an answer about the calcium and phosphorus levels in the food. She kept insisting that since it was all "human grade" the levels of these minerals didn't matter." Well he must have spoken to the cleaning lady because Andi Brown, the owner of the company was out of town last week. If this is the conversation he had with the cleaning woman then she lied because Andi Brown replied that they continually have their food analyzed and are always in compliance. I suggest that you get your story straight the next time you post such inaccurate information. These three also continue to insist that the pentobarbital in pet food poses no danger. I've questioned them a number of times that if this was the case why was the investigation begun in the first place? It was because dogs were building up a resistance to this drug and it was taking more to euthanize the. If this drug ws having no effect then there should have been no change in the amounts it took to euthanize. Also, the FDA/CVM did not consider the interaction of this drug with other drugs. They did not consider the interaction with other chemicals found in pet food. They measured ONE liver enzyme then sought to find the minimal daily dose that did not elevate this enzyme. The conclusion arrived at was this drug was "probably" safe. Probably does not mean it is safe. As I have also mentioned, the FDA/CVM has admitted that if this drug, in any amount, was found in human food it would be pulled from the shelves immediately. Not so with pet foods. When anyone questions any of you and you are backed into a corner your resort to derogatory remarks and name calling, you never answer the questions that are addressed to you. As I've said before, I don't have the time to spend with people like you and won't bother wasting anymore time with your posts. Others on the list know that I am more then happy to provide any documented information they require. Ann |
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"Ann Martin" wrote in message om... "Ann Martin" wrote in message I thought you weren't going to waste your time replying to me? LOL! Now comes the poor innocent, little victimized, altruist routine! LOL! My question is, what are you all so frightened of that you have taken such a defensive stand? ....of you starting and perpetuating rumors and scare tactics to scare people into a feeding plan that isn't necessary and they may not be prepared to follow -- all based largely on innuendo, conjecture and manipulated facts - as demonstrated to your reference to taurine-deficient diets which was corrected nearly 20 years ago.... How's that, for starters? You all seemed concerned that I am making all kinds of money from my books and television radio shows. You insinuate that all information in my books are nothing more then scare tactics. They *are* - Are your books free? Do you appear on radio shoes for free, too or to promote your books - i.e., free advertising? . Let's look at the pet food industry, an industry that makes billions per year. So does, GM, Ford and about a 1000 other companies.... What is this industry doing? Lying to the pet owner's, brain washing them into believing that feeding commercial pet foods, garbage, is the only way they can have a healthy pet. Obviously they;re not lying.... since cats are living longer today than they've ever lived before.... Because cats are living longer, didn't it ever occur to you that most of the diseases occur secondary to aging...? Or doesn't that fit with your agenda....? In the meantime these people, the pet owner's, are incurring thousands of dollars in vet bills from feeding this garbage. Bullsh!t. I can singlehandedly debunk your bullsh!t because my cats have been eating commercial food for 18 years and have never been sick a day in their lives... other than a case of worms they got in the shelter when they were kittens...My other cats lived to 22, 19, and 20 years- on commercial food. So much for your bullsh!t, eh Annie...? Fodder snipped just for the hell of it You ramble on about the nutrient value of the ingredients in pet foods Obviously a subject you know nothing about.... but you neglect to mention what these ingredients actually are. The ingredients are defined in the AAFCO Ingredients Definitions, You can derive nutrients from nearly anything including garbage. To that garbage add a substantial amount of vitamins, minerals and you want us to believe that you will be feeding your pet a "complete and balanced diet." That's what feeding trial are for, Einstein! That's how the digestibility, and bioavailabilty of the nutrients are determined! Does "gross energy", "digestible energy" and "metabolizable energy" ring any bells...Einstein? .. or didn't you even get that far in Nutrition 101! LOL! You have persisted in asking for documentation as to the information I have posted. I've provided that including the e-mail from the USDA/FSIS stating they have no input at all into the ingredients in pet food. I would have liked to see your original inquiry.... You can ask a question in such a way to get almost the exact, if not the exact answer you want... Hey, be realistic, you're not exactly unbaised and you do have an agenda... I've quote from letter received from the FDA/CVM as to their knowledge that pets ARE used in commercial pet foods and from David Dzanis, DVM, formerly with the FDA/CVM Formerly? He wouldn't be a disgruntled former employee would he? Hey, I can play the innuendo and conjecture game too! How do you like it? LOL! who stated that the AAFCO ingredient definitions applied to both livestock feed and PET FOOD. Nice manipulation! You're pretty good - but not good enough.... Because an ingredient has the same description, that doesn't mean that ingredient can be used in either food! "9. ANIMAL PRODUCTS . Official *Use of this ingredient, from mammalian origins, is restricted to non-ruminant feeds unless specifically exempted by 21 CFR 589.2000." All the ingredients only allowed in cat food bear the "*". The same ingredient can have different energy and nutritional values for different animals.... I'll make this real simple so I know you'll understand: For example, Einstein, grass has different energy and nutrient values for a cow that it does for a cat. And even though a horse is a nonruminant, the energy and nutrient values are different than for a cat or a cow because of the lenght of the horses digestive system.... I guess you slept through that class of Nutrition 101! LOL! Crane wrote that he had spoken to Halo, the company that makes 'Spots Stew. "I spent nearly an hour on the phone with this lady and found out she had never had the food analyzed and could not even begin to give me an answer about the calcium and phosphorus levels in the food. She kept insisting that since it was all "human grade" the levels of these minerals didn't matter." Well he must have spoken to the cleaning lady because Andi Brown, the owner of the company was out of town last week. If this is the conversation he had with the cleaning woman then she lied because Andi Brown replied that they continually have their food analyzed and are always in compliance. I suggest that you get your story straight the next time you post such inaccurate information. ROTFLMAO! You just made a liar out of YOURSELF! (Not hard to do). What happened to the "garbage"??? These three also continue to insist that the pentobarbital in pet food poses no danger. I've questioned them a number of times that if this was the case why was the investigation begun in the first place? It was because dogs were building up a resistance to this drug and it was taking more to euthanize the. If this drug ws having no effect then there should have been no change in the amounts it took to euthanize. Also, the FDA/CVM did not consider the interaction of this drug with other drugs. They did not consider the interaction with other chemicals found in pet food. They measured ONE liver enzyme then sought to find the minimal daily dose that did not elevate this enzyme. The conclusion arrived at was this drug was "probably" safe. Probably does not mean it is safe. So you perpetuated a rumour and scare tactic based on nothing more than innuendo and conjecture - even though *your own source* didn;t even imply there was a danger! You created a rumour and scare tactic -- no way out of that! You just admitted it youself! LOL! There is no proof, even according to you, that pentobarbital poses any danger at the levels found. About 90% of all food ingredients are GRAS! "Gernerally regarded as safe" As far as I'm concerned, even based partly on your *own* admission, YOU'RE FULL OF **** and nothing but a scamming, manipulator - if not an actual liar Anyone who believes your book, I know where they can get "waterfront" property in Fla (not far from the Everglades) and Rolex watches real cheap! LOL! more bullsh!t snipped |
#3
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"Ann Martin" wrote in message om... "Ann Martin" wrote in message I thought you weren't going to waste your time replying to me? LOL! Now comes the poor innocent, little victimized, altruist routine! LOL! My question is, what are you all so frightened of that you have taken such a defensive stand? ....of you starting and perpetuating rumors and scare tactics to scare people into a feeding plan that isn't necessary and they may not be prepared to follow -- all based largely on innuendo, conjecture and manipulated facts - as demonstrated to your reference to taurine-deficient diets which was corrected nearly 20 years ago.... How's that, for starters? You all seemed concerned that I am making all kinds of money from my books and television radio shows. You insinuate that all information in my books are nothing more then scare tactics. They *are* - Are your books free? Do you appear on radio shoes for free, too or to promote your books - i.e., free advertising? . Let's look at the pet food industry, an industry that makes billions per year. So does, GM, Ford and about a 1000 other companies.... What is this industry doing? Lying to the pet owner's, brain washing them into believing that feeding commercial pet foods, garbage, is the only way they can have a healthy pet. Obviously they;re not lying.... since cats are living longer today than they've ever lived before.... Because cats are living longer, didn't it ever occur to you that most of the diseases occur secondary to aging...? Or doesn't that fit with your agenda....? In the meantime these people, the pet owner's, are incurring thousands of dollars in vet bills from feeding this garbage. Bullsh!t. I can singlehandedly debunk your bullsh!t because my cats have been eating commercial food for 18 years and have never been sick a day in their lives... other than a case of worms they got in the shelter when they were kittens...My other cats lived to 22, 19, and 20 years- on commercial food. So much for your bullsh!t, eh Annie...? Fodder snipped just for the hell of it You ramble on about the nutrient value of the ingredients in pet foods Obviously a subject you know nothing about.... but you neglect to mention what these ingredients actually are. The ingredients are defined in the AAFCO Ingredients Definitions, You can derive nutrients from nearly anything including garbage. To that garbage add a substantial amount of vitamins, minerals and you want us to believe that you will be feeding your pet a "complete and balanced diet." That's what feeding trial are for, Einstein! That's how the digestibility, and bioavailabilty of the nutrients are determined! Does "gross energy", "digestible energy" and "metabolizable energy" ring any bells...Einstein? .. or didn't you even get that far in Nutrition 101! LOL! You have persisted in asking for documentation as to the information I have posted. I've provided that including the e-mail from the USDA/FSIS stating they have no input at all into the ingredients in pet food. I would have liked to see your original inquiry.... You can ask a question in such a way to get almost the exact, if not the exact answer you want... Hey, be realistic, you're not exactly unbaised and you do have an agenda... I've quote from letter received from the FDA/CVM as to their knowledge that pets ARE used in commercial pet foods and from David Dzanis, DVM, formerly with the FDA/CVM Formerly? He wouldn't be a disgruntled former employee would he? Hey, I can play the innuendo and conjecture game too! How do you like it? LOL! who stated that the AAFCO ingredient definitions applied to both livestock feed and PET FOOD. Nice manipulation! You're pretty good - but not good enough.... Because an ingredient has the same description, that doesn't mean that ingredient can be used in either food! "9. ANIMAL PRODUCTS . Official *Use of this ingredient, from mammalian origins, is restricted to non-ruminant feeds unless specifically exempted by 21 CFR 589.2000." All the ingredients only allowed in cat food bear the "*". The same ingredient can have different energy and nutritional values for different animals.... I'll make this real simple so I know you'll understand: For example, Einstein, grass has different energy and nutrient values for a cow that it does for a cat. And even though a horse is a nonruminant, the energy and nutrient values are different than for a cat or a cow because of the lenght of the horses digestive system.... I guess you slept through that class of Nutrition 101! LOL! Crane wrote that he had spoken to Halo, the company that makes 'Spots Stew. "I spent nearly an hour on the phone with this lady and found out she had never had the food analyzed and could not even begin to give me an answer about the calcium and phosphorus levels in the food. She kept insisting that since it was all "human grade" the levels of these minerals didn't matter." Well he must have spoken to the cleaning lady because Andi Brown, the owner of the company was out of town last week. If this is the conversation he had with the cleaning woman then she lied because Andi Brown replied that they continually have their food analyzed and are always in compliance. I suggest that you get your story straight the next time you post such inaccurate information. ROTFLMAO! You just made a liar out of YOURSELF! (Not hard to do). What happened to the "garbage"??? These three also continue to insist that the pentobarbital in pet food poses no danger. I've questioned them a number of times that if this was the case why was the investigation begun in the first place? It was because dogs were building up a resistance to this drug and it was taking more to euthanize the. If this drug ws having no effect then there should have been no change in the amounts it took to euthanize. Also, the FDA/CVM did not consider the interaction of this drug with other drugs. They did not consider the interaction with other chemicals found in pet food. They measured ONE liver enzyme then sought to find the minimal daily dose that did not elevate this enzyme. The conclusion arrived at was this drug was "probably" safe. Probably does not mean it is safe. So you perpetuated a rumour and scare tactic based on nothing more than innuendo and conjecture - even though *your own source* didn;t even imply there was a danger! You created a rumour and scare tactic -- no way out of that! You just admitted it youself! LOL! There is no proof, even according to you, that pentobarbital poses any danger at the levels found. About 90% of all food ingredients are GRAS! "Gernerally regarded as safe" As far as I'm concerned, even based partly on your *own* admission, YOU'RE FULL OF **** and nothing but a scamming, manipulator - if not an actual liar Anyone who believes your book, I know where they can get "waterfront" property in Fla (not far from the Everglades) and Rolex watches real cheap! LOL! more bullsh!t snipped |
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"Diane L. Schirf" wrote in message link.net... In article , (Ann Martin) wrote: My question is, what are you all so frightened of that you have taken such a defensive stand? I don't think they're frightened at all. To me it sounds like you've made claims in a book that aren't substantiated. If that is the case, the burden of proof is on you, not on anyone else. You have to prove what you say is true; they don't have to prove it's false. Martin makes unproven, conjectured statements then demands people disprove them! Ain't that a hoot! ...What a con artist and manipulator! |
#5
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"Diane L. Schirf" wrote in message link.net... In article , (Ann Martin) wrote: My question is, what are you all so frightened of that you have taken such a defensive stand? I don't think they're frightened at all. To me it sounds like you've made claims in a book that aren't substantiated. If that is the case, the burden of proof is on you, not on anyone else. You have to prove what you say is true; they don't have to prove it's false. Martin makes unproven, conjectured statements then demands people disprove them! Ain't that a hoot! ...What a con artist and manipulator! |
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NOW
WOULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE SOME DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO REGULATES THE INGREDIENTS THAT ARE IN COMMERCIAL FOOD http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfoodflier.html "The Act does require that pet foods, like human foods, be pure and wholesome, contain no harmful or deleterious substances, and be truthfully labeled." That's about it. Also, if this is the IBD group Petco now sells Bene-bac, probiotics in tubes. I used some on my squirrels and cat after giving them antibiotics and it worked great. Maybe the IBD cats could use some. I think if you have the knowledge of nutrition, desire and money, a homemade food would be preferable as it won't have additives, colorings, flavorings, preservatives... My IBD cat couldn't eat store bought food. I had to make it for him. I used the same ingredients in the can food, chicken and rice with vitamin/mineral powder, but it didn't make him sick so it must have been everything else in there. |
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NOW
WOULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE SOME DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO REGULATES THE INGREDIENTS THAT ARE IN COMMERCIAL FOOD http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfoodflier.html "The Act does require that pet foods, like human foods, be pure and wholesome, contain no harmful or deleterious substances, and be truthfully labeled." That's about it. Also, if this is the IBD group Petco now sells Bene-bac, probiotics in tubes. I used some on my squirrels and cat after giving them antibiotics and it worked great. Maybe the IBD cats could use some. I think if you have the knowledge of nutrition, desire and money, a homemade food would be preferable as it won't have additives, colorings, flavorings, preservatives... My IBD cat couldn't eat store bought food. I had to make it for him. I used the same ingredients in the can food, chicken and rice with vitamin/mineral powder, but it didn't make him sick so it must have been everything else in there. |
#9
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pam (Mary) wrote in message ...
NOW WOULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE SOME DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO REGULATES THE INGREDIENTS THAT ARE IN COMMERCIAL FOOD http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfoodflier.html "The Act does require that pet foods, like human foods, be pure and wholesome, contain no harmful or deleterious substances, and be truthfully labeled." That's about it. Mary, I believe that is from Code of Federal Regulations, Title 21, Food and Drugs, Part 500. I also think if you contact the FDA/CVM they will advise you that neither they nor any other agency actually inspects or tests the ingredients used in pet food. A good example of this is the sodium pentobarbital. Dr. Stephen Sundlof from the FDA/CVM, replied when I questioned the pentobarbital which was found in pet food. He stated that this drug was not to be in food for human or animal consumption "Do not use in animals intended for food" in the regulation (21 CFR 522.900) for Euthanasia solution applies only to food destined for human consumption or food for human and animal consumption." The FDA/CVM has also stated that if any amount was found in human food it would be pulled from the shelves immediately yet they do not plan any action to remove it from pet foods. It is a barbiturate under the Federal Controlled Substance Act (DEA). What I suggest is that people contact the FDA/CVM and ask them directly if they, or any other branch of the government or any agency such as the AAFCO, actually test the materials used in commercial pet food. I can guarantee that as long as the contents meet the label requirments, levels of protein, carbohydrate, fats, that is all that is considered. It does not matter what comprises the protein, carbs or fats. Someone also stated that the AAFCO, classifed livestock and pet food in different catagories. Dr. David Dzanis, formerly a veterinary medical officer with the CVM, made it clear in a letter that ALL AAFCO 'ingredient definitions' applied to both livestock and pet food. I think if you have the knowledge of nutrition, desire and money, a homemade food would be preferable as it won't have additives, colorings, flavorings, preservatives... My IBD cat couldn't eat store bought food. I had to make it for him. I used the same ingredients in the can food, chicken and rice with vitamin/mineral powder, but it didn't make him sick so it must have been everything else in there. At least you would know what is going into the food you are feed your IBD cat which is not the case with commercial pet foods. The pet food industry states that home prepared diets are not complete and balanced and that we are basically killing our pets if we don't feed commercial pet foods. I know hundreds of pets that are now eating a homemade diet and doing extremely well including my three cats and dog. Ann |
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"Cathy Friedmann" wrote
All these people have stated that this industry is regulated. Where is the proof? Show me one document that gives any indication that ingredients in pet foods are regulated. One idiot stated that the USDA/FSIS regulated the ingredients used in pet foods. WRONG! they have no input at all. The FDA/CVM oversees any drugs that are used in pet foods and the labeling text. NOTHING ELSE. The AAFCO sets guidelines and it is up to each state to adopt these guidlines. Very few states actually do and if they do this group, comprised of many from the pet food industry, has no input at all into the ingredients used. If you follow the AAFCO guidlelines, as I have pointed out in a previous post, the foods can contain such things as "hydrolyzed hair," dehydrated garbage," "dehydrated food waste," "dried ruminant waste," "dried swine waste," "undried processed animal waste products,". NOW WOULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE SOME DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO REGULATES THE INGREDIENTS THAT ARE IN COMMERCIAL FOOD. THE PET FOOD COMPANIES, THAT'S WHO REGULATES THIS INDUSTRY. snipped As I've said before, I don't have the time to spend with people like you and won't bother wasting anymore time with your posts. Others on the list know that I am more then happy to provide any documented information they require. Ann Small, nit-picky correction: this is a news group, not a list. Thanks Cathy, I'll remember that in the future. And, it's considered to be impolite to use caps for entire words/sentences in ngs - it's = shouting. Cathy, if I were speaking directly to these people I would be shouting as they can't seem to comprehend anything I have said. There will be no more shouting as I will not be responding to these people again. Ann |
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