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  #41  
Old August 4th 03, 05:14 PM
No One But Me
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just because something is not your world view does not make him wrong for
his world view. all you have control of is your world not his. quit trying
to control the whole world & you'll be a whole lot happier.

although i do not agree with a lot of what brenchley writes, based on my own
personal experience, I agree with allowing cats outdoors. of my own 11 cats,
7 are allowed to go outside (1 of them is even declawed). i would not dream
of keeping them indoors only. they would not be happy there. whatever i wish
for my cats, i wish them to be happy. of the other 4 cats, 2 are kittens who
will never go out (destined for declawing both of them), 1 is an adult tabby
who has never gone out (& is declawed), and 1 is kept indoors for his own
protection. he is not the brightest bulb in the package so he is not allowed
outside. besides, at 3 he still has not learned to come when he is called,
everytime he is called ... & that is a big requirement for going outside.
the other 7 always come when they are called ... every single time they are
called. my ultimate goal with all my pets is their happiness not my
happiness. i guess i'm just not that selfish by nature.

barbara


"L. Kelly" wrote in message
. ca...
| I wanted you to know bewtifulfreak that I really appreciate your

common
| sense. Trying to carry on a intelligent conversation with Bob is not
| possible. But thanks for trying!
|
| Thank you, Mogie, that means a lot to me. I realized that right from

the
| start, and intend to stop trying. I usually do okay at ignoring people

like
| that - and plonking him will make it that much easier - but when people
| can't disagree without making personal attacks, it just seems to bring

out
| the avenging angel in me, LOL! But clearly, Bob is not into common

sense,
| and nothing I can say will stop him making his unmitigated judgements

about
| the allegedy sickness, selfishness, or cruelty of all you wonderful

folks in
| the group. Like Dear Abby (or was it Ann Landers?) once said, trying to
| reason with an alcoholic is like trying to blow out a lightbulb, and

trying
| to discuss anything with Bob is exactly the same!
|
| Ann

As a further note in trying to reason with Bob.....I read a quote today

that I think fits
him perfectly and thought that I would share it will all who are

interested.

"How much easier it is to be critical, than to be correct." ... Benjamin

Disraeli

In the debate on whether or not to keep a cat strictly indoors, or let it

have some
outdoor freedom, there really is no "right" or "wrong." I feel that the

cats will let the
slaves know if they are unhappy. As long as the cats are fed, loved, happy

and healthy,
the slave should have the right to chose what is "good" for their cat.

In rural areas, with fewer dangers...let your cats have some freedom. In

the city,
wrought with every kind of evil you can imagine, use your best

judgement...and let your
kitties always be your guides in what that decision is.
--
Hugs,
Lynn


*strip CLOTHES to reply*
Homepage:
http://members.shaw.ca/sewfinefashions/
See my boys: http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/papavince_29/





  #42  
Old August 4th 03, 06:09 PM
bewtifulfreak
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First off, just want you to know that you guys out there putting your butt
on the line in the name of freedom and support of your fellow man are much
appreciated.


"Bryan S. Slick" wrote in message
...

:Nor is that statement of his verifiable.


There is absolutely no truth to the statement that UK shelters will not
place a cat in an indoor-only environment. This was proven last year
when Cats Protection itself was writing messages to be posted on this
newsgroup, said messages specifically stating that you did not speak for
them, nor could you, as well as stating that they were rather tired of
having to deal with you at all. Then again, the fact that something is
absolute 100% nonsense doesn't keep you from spouting it as fact.


I noticed that's how he tries to dominate, by making statements that sound
like fact, that you couldn't generally refute without a great deal of
research. That said, as far as his argument for wet food over dry, while
there's still the issue of the moisture being processed differently when
ingested in the food as opposed to seperately, so much for the issue of dry
being full of cereals that cats don't normally get in the wild; I went
looking for wet today, and couldn't find one that was pure meat, they all
contain cereals as well. Maybe less so than dry, I'm not sure, but it looks
like almost no cat food is carb free. So, since I'm still not sure about
the whole issue, will probably just give them a balance of both and be done
with it!

And yes, after trying to hold an intelligent debate with Bob, I've already
seen him for what he is, and how he would rather insult and parrot his same
tired lines than try to convince you of his position by addressing the
points you make. Therefore, although I don't make a habit of doing so, I've
already killfiled him; when someone is blatently abusive, and refuses to
hold an intelligent debate on a discussion group, I see no point in exposing
myself to their negativity.

Glad to have you back safe and sound.

Ann



  #43  
Old August 5th 03, 02:38 AM
Ted Davis
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On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:09:01 +0100, "bewtifulfreak"
wrote:

Snip
I went
looking for wet today, and couldn't find one that was pure meat, they all
contain cereals as well. Maybe less so than dry, I'm not sure, but it looks
like almost no cat food is carb free. So, since I'm still not sure about
the whole issue, will probably just give them a balance of both and be done
with it!


Note that cats eat *entire* mice, including the mouse's last meal or
two ... and what do mice eat? Even feral cats eat cereals. Cats are
a lot less exclusively carnivorous than most people think.


T.E.D. - e-mail must contain "T.E.D." or my .sig in the body)
  #44  
Old August 5th 03, 02:50 AM
bewtifulfreak
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"Ted Davis" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:09:01 +0100, "bewtifulfreak"
wrote:

Snip
I went
looking for wet today, and couldn't find one that was pure meat, they all
contain cereals as well. Maybe less so than dry, I'm not sure, but it

looks
like almost no cat food is carb free. So, since I'm still not sure about
the whole issue, will probably just give them a balance of both and be

done
with it!


Note that cats eat *entire* mice, including the mouse's last meal or
two ... and what do mice eat? Even feral cats eat cereals. Cats are
a lot less exclusively carnivorous than most people think.


Oh, yeah, huh?! Thanks for that....makes good sense, and puts my mind at
ease a bit.

Ann


  #45  
Old August 5th 03, 09:11 AM
Gee
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As for Bob.. I occasionally ignore him as well.. Hell, mostly.. but from
time to time it is necessary to smack him down a peg or two, lest he
think that the group as a whole has accepted him as some kind of
authority figure, rather than someone who thinks he can win an argument
by being the loudest voice in the room. Heh.


Authority figure!?/???!!!!! Don;t make me laugh! He is more like a joke
figure in here. Everybody knows Bob's "gems"! I dealt with him for years,
and I can tell you one thing, he has upset and got rid of many people on
this and other cat forums, and all becuase they wouldn;t agree with his
opinion. He would then start abusing them, lying through his teeth, calling
people names and to the point of , in my case, calling even my dead cat the
ugliest names, just becuase I disagreed with him. And we all know what kind
of person could ever stoop so low! So that was it for me, I killfiled this
waste of space, time and air. He is not a type of person I want in my life,
not even a virtual one!!! There are far too many nicer people on this board
who want to discuss cats, which is essentially why we are here. And if there
is a discussion and difference of opinions, there is nothing wrong with it,
as long as it is adult and civilised. Bob wouldn;t understand the meaning of
this.

So don;t worry about Boob. We all know Boob only too well! We just
killfiled him, or treat him for what he is: nothing.

Gee


  #46  
Old August 5th 03, 07:02 PM
No One But Me
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just because people disagree with you, kaeli, doesn't mean they are wrong.
your world view is your world view and you do not have the right to draw the
lines for the whole world. the only portion of the world you can change is
your little world view. gawd! i'm glad i have the RIGHT to do with my animal
as i please & no one else gets a say.

FYI, the declawed cat that goes out is not one i declawed. that one was
abandoned in the front yard in a city 350 miles from my home by an owner who
just up and moved & left him there to fend for himself. my daughter rescued
him & brought him to me. and those were good folks just like you. so don't
talk to me about selfish. i have 11 cats, nine of which were other people's
throwaways. Nine of which were abandoned by good folks just like you. i
would say they're lives are infinitely better now than they were before
their owner just threw them out, even if they were declawed by me. in order
to have a home, food in your bowl, water to drink, regular medical care, and
an owner to take care of them & love them, prices have to be paid. i don't
think my cats hate the price (declawing) they paid for a home. they seem
very happy to me. and they would never leave with someone else. that someone
else would have to come into my yard & take them. they wouldn't go
willingly.

there's no end of people who try to draw the lines for the whole world. now
that's selfish & self-centered.

Barbara

"kaeli" wrote in message
...
In article ,
enlightened us with...
just because something is not your world view does not make him wrong

for
his world view. all you have control of is your world not his. quit

trying
to control the whole world & you'll be a whole lot happier.

although i do not agree with a lot of what brenchley writes, based on my

own
personal experience, I agree with allowing cats outdoors. of my own 11 c

ats,
7 are allowed to go outside (1 of them is even declawed). i would not

dream
of keeping them indoors only. they would not be happy there. whatever i

wish
for my cats, i wish them to be happy. of the other 4 cats, 2 are kittens

who
will never go out (destined for declawing both of them), 1 is an adult

tabby
who has never gone out (& is declawed), and 1 is kept indoors for his

own
protection. he is not the brightest bulb in the package so he is not

allowed
outside. besides, at 3 he still has not learned to come when he is

called,
everytime he is called ... & that is a big requirement for going

outside.
the other 7 always come when they are called ... every single time they

are
called. my ultimate goal with all my pets is their happiness not my
happiness. i guess i'm just not that selfish by nature.

barbara


You aren't selfish enough to keep them in, but you'll amputate the last
digit on the toes, a procedure that is painful, can be debilitating, and
has no benefits to the cat whatsoever?

Yeah, okay. You keep on telling other people how selfish they are.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Found God? If nobody claims Him in 30 days,
He's yours to keep.
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any
more than standing in a garage makes you a car.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------



  #47  
Old August 6th 03, 03:20 AM
Arjun Ray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In , "No One But Me"
wrote:

| just because people disagree with you, kaeli, doesn't mean they are
| wrong.

You don't qualify for this generalization...

| i'm glad i have the RIGHT to do with my animal as i please & no one
| else gets a say.

.... and that's why.

The Smothers brothers must have had you in mind: "I am American. I have
the RIGHT to be stupid."

| FYI, the declawed cat that goes out is not one i declawed. that one was
| abandoned in the front yard in a city 350 miles from my home

And uphill both ways, right?

| my daughter rescued him & brought him to me.

Pity. Your daughter needed a clue.

| i would say

oh my. not just an ignoramus. an affected, opinionated ignoramus.

| they're lives are infinitely better now than they were before their
| owner just threw them out, even if they were declawed by me.

They went from frying pan to fire. HTH.

| in order to have a home,

Does your trailer have running water?

| food in your bowl,

Corn filler dry food from the grocery store?

| water to drink,

Oh wow, the flush works now and then.

| regular medical care,

For crystals in the bladder? How considerate of you.

| and an owner to take care of them & love them, prices have to be paid.

Oh right, the cat signed a contract, there were witnesses, and you had
it notarized. After all, you didn't want the cat to sue, in case your
insurance premiums went up. Wow, that was smart!

You love for pay, and so you got the cats to pay you to love them!

Idiotic "arguments" like this explain why the left tail of the bell
curve is so fat.

  #48  
Old August 6th 03, 06:09 AM
DeAnna
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This man surely can't be a DVM.

If he is, I am glad to live in America.

Recommending leaving cats outdoors to benefit their immune system? Claiming to be a
champion for the right to toss cats out of doors to be left at the mercy of the elements,
in the name of a 'full life'.....

LOL

Sheesh.

D.

"Don Swenson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 09:57:45 +0100, Bob Brenchley.
wrote:

On 29 Jul 2003 15:36:41 +1000, wrote:

In article ,
Bob Brenchley. wrote:



If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each
day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have
a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being
cruel, selfish, or both.


Yeah, yeah, Bob. Can't you come up with a better line you little
******? Not only are you a ******, but you're a liar too. Oh wait, I
forgot you're a DVM who is smarter than all of the other DVMs in the
world. My bad.


***********************************************

"Free-ranging cats in the United States have an average lifespan in
the general population of only 3 to 5 years; indoor cats have an
average lifespan of 12 years and frequently live longer than 20
years..."
(Karen L. Overall, M.A., V.M.D., Ph.D., Diplomate, American College
of Veterinary Behavior; Department of Clinical Studies School of
Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania)

"The hazards of the outdoors-automobiles, dogs, rival cats, poisonous
plants, infectious diseases, and fleas, to name but a few-are
compelling reasons to keep cats exclusively indoors."
(Dr. James Richards, Director, Cornell Feline Health Center,
College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York)

"Cats can be happily kept inside all the time"
(Robert J. Holmes, BVM&S, PhD, MRCVS, FACVSc,
Cat Behavior and Training
Animal Behaviour Clinic, Malvern Vie 3 144, Australia)



  #49  
Old August 6th 03, 06:18 AM
DeAnna
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Default

Moronic posting style corrected. You have been charged $50 for this
service, please remit by international money order as a donation to
Cats Protection (cats.org.uk) within the next 7 days. Be warned that
repeated use of this service will incur a escalating rate of charges.


When you can prove fit to judge my posting style, I will remit a payment. Until then, you
may be compensated exactly what your opinions are worth. Consider that amount as having
been posted to your account.

After many years on cat groups trying to educated the ignorant - no.


Rather like the blind leading the blind? Ah, another 'victim' who must blame their own bad
behaviour on their perceived actions of others. If you don't get help at Charter.......get
help somewhere.

Where did I ever say that?


You would have us believe that it is totally safe to allow your cats to roam unsupervised,
with no fear of abuse. I think you are just trying to offer more excuses for irresponsible
behaviour.

You've
folks there that kill other humans for their difference in religious beliefs. And you
expect me to believe that no one becomes enraged over the destruction of their

property?

By cats? No, not really.


Cats, kids, cars, sheep, little green men from Mars?.... people who are upset because the
property they work hard and pay for becomes ruined are most often not really concerned
with the "by what?" question. They are just upset that the incident occurs. The fact
remains that cats DO harm the property of others, they can scratch paint on expensive
cars, defecate and urinate in plantings, kill song birds, and other small pets and
wildlife, and often disturb other peoples pets, inciting dogs to bark. These kind of
actions occur world wide, as cats are cats, and don't understand the etiquette of trying
to feel somehow morally superiour because they live in the UK. You do not have the power
to control how these people react, only the power to see they don't have a reason to react
in the first place.

People who do not like animals in their gardens have the right to keep
them out. They do not have the right to harm the animal though.


Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if everyone operated ONLY within their legal rights? You
may come back to reality at any time, or stay in your delusional fantasy world where
people don't do bad things because you 'prosecute' and 'punish' them.

But for the sake of other cats a criminal conviction would have

helped. Most people would not have rat poison, in fact I can't
remember the last time I saw any being used. And of course, tests
would soon link the poison to the death and then the police would
prosecute.


I have come to the conclusion that you are either an insipid troll, a complete blithering
fool with way too much time on his hands, or a seriously delusional mental case. The
police have their hands full solving HUMAN murders. Both in the UK, and the US. You SURELY
don't expect them to do full forensic testing because of a dead CAT? Rat poison is very
common here, and obtainable in any grocery store. We reported the death. There was
absolutely no way to prove how the cat had gotten in to the poison, and like the police
officer said, "It could have been from eating a contaminated mouse that had recently
filled it's stomach." A neighbor on the other side of the 'alleged' poisoner hinted that
they knew what happened, but would not come forward because they "have to live next to
this person, and didn't want any trouble". Even if the person did 'say' what they knew, it
would be 'hearsay' evidence, and thus inadmissible in a court, and a LONG way from proving
anything. And even *IF* they did prosecute, what would the person get? A fine? A month in
the county jail?

Here's another hint-police don't prosecute here. The District Attorney's office does.
Perhaps your have been watching too many fantasy detective shows, where the copper always
'gets the bad guy' in the end.

Ahh, and as for "most people" not having rat poison? Here, in fact, is a quote from
http://www.simplyonecall.co.uk/ of Northern Ireland-
Preparative baiting
Rodenticide bait is placed at strategic, safe points, inside and outside the buildings, in
order to reduce populations around the building and to deal with individuals that enter,
before an infestation can take hold.

Gee, I wonder where they get that rodenticide?

Only three days? It really should be three weeks, which allows for
people taking a couple of weeks holiday and the cat going AWOL on the
first day.


I suppose they figure if you are irresponsible enough to let your unaltered animal run
amok while you are on holiday, it is better off with someone else. This cat had been
living in an partially constructed house across the road for over a month. It is also very
apparent that it is a feral animal. So no need to get your knickers in a bunch worrying
about owners showing up.

Well if they make threats, that in itself can be a criminal offence,
but it would at least get them a warning from the police that they had
better not try anything. If something then happened to the cat, well
the police do not take being ignored like that very lightly.


Those kind of people can be warned and warned. They were warned about keeping the dog on
their own property, or they'd be given a citation, but guess where the dog was again last
week?

Your stupidity is showing. A cat is NOT a child, by the age of a year
it is a full adult. Would you keep your sister in 24/7 just because
there is a risk she could be mugged or raped if she went out?


Your point of view is absurd. 1. A cat cannot be communicated with like even a human CHILD
can. You can't tell the cat, "Okay, you can go play at Fluffy's, but don't cross the
street by yourself, and be home by seven." 2. I ALWAYS knew where my kids were. At all
times. NO exceptions. And until they were old enough to stay away from traffic and
strangers, they went NO WHERE without an adult. My animals are the same way. When they go
outdoors, they are supervised, for their protection, and as a matter of decency and
responsibilty. Comparing an "adult" animal with only a limited understanding of the human
world, to a fully competent adult human is like comparing a severly mentally handicapped
person of age, with Einstein. Both may be of legal majority, or physically full grown, but
it does not mean that unfortunate handicapped person has the capability to fend for
themselves in a hostile environment, with the same success as a person who has a greater
mental capacity.

But it is no excuse to ill-treat cats by keeping them indoors 24/7.


Again, what are you taking/smoking that makes you think that providing a cat with a
spacious environment, and supervised outdoor activity, is ill-treating them? Would you
throw a three year old out of doors, unsupervised? They can obey safety rules about as
well as a cat can. Do you think the three year old will stay in his own yard, or look
before he crosses the road?

Even in the UK, some children are murdered by strangers - but that
does not mean we keep all our kids indoors 24/7. What it means is
that, as a society, we do all we can to catch and punish the murderers
- making it less likely that others will be tempted to follow suit.


Catch and punish all you like. I see what they did to those two ten year olds who tortured
and molested that poor two year old until he was dead, then had the forethought to try and
hide their sick crime. Wiped their records and set them free. Bully for your vastly
superiour catch and punish system (NOT!). I would not ever let a child OR a pet of mine
out of my site, in the UK or the US.

But you are NOT showing then care and tenderness - your are not
providing them with a proper life. At best the manage a rather meager
half-life, cut of from so much that is important to them.


What is it that you deem so important? Defecating on the neighbors yard in lieu of their
own? Hunting and killing? (Mine do that indoors, only it is scorpions, and spiders,
instead of mice). They have lizards and fish to watch, plenty of activity, and plants to
chew on. They have places to scratch, climb and plenty of open area to run. A meager life
is a cat that just "exists". Thrown out of doors, without companionship or love, until
such a time as to dump some morsel into its bowl. That isn't a life. That isn't a
relationship. That is a 'possession'. Might as well have a statue.


Liar!

Well, you show me one instance where I've lied. You, on the other hand, are the one who
inferred that they don't have rat poison in the UK.

Even when THEY are given the choice,
they prefer to be indoors.


Well if you systematically abuse them long enough that is the sort of
miserable half-cat you get as a result.


Go on believing your delusions. You must really have some deep seated emotional problems
to carry on the way you do. Tell me, what kind of real life do you have, besides keeping
non-pets that 'belong' to you, pnly to roam around to only God-knows-where until feeding
time? Perhaps the lackings in your own interpersonal relationship skills are what drives
you to live the fantasy VR life of a newsgroup troll. Do you actually even OWN a cat?


Perhaps they know more than any of us give them credit for.
Those who truly love their animals would literally lay down their lives for them, and
would never intentionally put them in harms way.


You live in a very sad little dream world - life is a balance, and you
are not allowing your cat to live its life.


I think the health and happiness of my animals speaks volumes as to their balance. Tell
me, are your cats well enough behaved to sit in the seat of a shopping basket as you push
it round the store? How much 'quality' time do you actually spend, interacting with your
animals, and giving them love? (Don't count that fifteen seconds it takes to open the tin
and dump the cat food in the bowl as "quality time".) Do you take your cats on outings?
(Don't count trips to the vet when they come home all torn to shreds from tangling with
some vicious wildlife).


Liar! You put your cats at greater risk of disease than I do, because
their immune systems will not be able to cope with things properly.
You put your cats at FAR greater risk when they do eventually escape
(as all cats do).


You are so confused. The immune system developes in a normal healthy cat, whether exposed
to viruses or not. It does not take constant exposure to contaminents or infectious
biohazards to stimulate immune development. A person (or cat) can have a fully functional,
non-compromised immune system without being exposed to the myriad of 'bugs' available to
wandering strays. In fact, feline AIDS is a leading cause of MANY cat illnesses, and is
usually transmitted by a bite or scratch wound caused by fighting.

From Cornell Feline Health Center, Cornell University-
"FIV-infected cats are found worldwide, but the prevalence of infection depends on
geographic locale and the population of cats tested. In the United States, approximately
1.5 to 3% of healthy cats are infected with FIV. Infection rates rise significantly in
cats that are sick; up to 15% of cats with clinical signs of other disease also are
infected with FIV. Free-roaming male cats -- especially aggressive ones -- are the most
frequently infected, while cats housed exclusively indoors are much less likely to be
infected. "

Full article appears he

http://web.vet.cornell.edu/Public/FHC/fiv.html

It would appear letting your cat OUTDOORS is actually a greater risk to compromising their
immune system. Where did you get your degree in immunology? Please go ask them for a
refund.

if I can at all help
it. They are all very healthy, happy, and loving, and that speaks volumes more truth,

than
any opinion typed in ignorance.


The only ignorance is yours - animal abuser.


*sigh* There is this saying about mud wrestling with a pig......


Alas, your intelligence qualifies you more for the primordial soup
than for the "master race." Recognize your limitations. Then shut
up.


I have test results putting my IQ over the 130 mark. What is yours, Bob? Care to share?
No lying now! *snicker*

And FYI, who is to say the cats aren't the master race?

If you spent the amount of time you waste each day trolling this newsgroup with your inane
verbosity, instead on actually CARING for your pets, instead of tossing them outside, out
of your way, perhaps you'd not be such an ill-mannered, boorish troll.

D.


 




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