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OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 4th 08, 10:25 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
CatNipped[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,003
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in message
...


CatNipped wrote:


Actually, according to our Constitution, state laws *should* supersede
Federal law in all but cases involving crossing state lines. Don't let
anybody kid you, the Civil war was about the north not getting its grubby
hands on taxes generated by cotton plantations (as all wars throughout
history, no matter the lip service paid to ideological beliefs, it is
*always* about money).


How true. I am reading an eye-opening novel "The Proud and the Free",
about the way our government dispossessed the Cherokee Nation, back in the
1830's. The book itself is a slightly steamy romantic novel, but the
historical background is genuine, and redeems it. These were not
"savages", but people who had adopted the White Man's ways, were educated
in Eastern U.S. schools, and had become prosperous farmers and
businessmen. (Since their territory included a good chunk of the Deep
South, many had lavish plantations, and were slave-owners.)


I *lurve* historical "novels"! One of my favorites is "Rabble in Arms" - it
gives a whole 'nother side of the story about Benedict Arnold.


I have always considered it a good joke on our government that, after
forcing the Indians into lands the White Man didn't want, they discovered
oil there, and couldn't evict them. However, that may simply mean we had
a slightly more moral government in office at the time. There were equally
binding treaties in place in the 1830's, but when President Jackson and
his cronies decided they wanted all that rich farmland and those newly
discovered goldmines in Georgia, it didn't stop them forcing new treaties
relocating the Cherokees from their ancestral lands to territory West of
the Mississippi, and using the U.S. Army to enforce the eviction. (There
are times I don't think much of the human race, and clearly Americans are
no better than anyone else.)


Yep, there seems to be no honor in government when money is involved!

Chin Skritches,

CatNipped


  #12  
Old August 4th 08, 11:16 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Kreisleriana[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,817
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)



"hopitus" wrote in message
...
On Aug 4, 1:15 pm, "CatNipped" wrote:
This case hits rather close to home and I was wondering if it were
possible
for us to discuss this rationally. I can sort of see both sides of the
issue.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5922356.html

"Texas. It's like a whole other country."

Coined to promote tourism, that wry verbal wink at the state's mythic
image
has assumed a literal meaning as Texas finds itself in defiance of the
United Nations, the Organization of American States and national leaders
in
its planned Tuesday execution of Mexican citizen Jose Medellin.

Unless the U.S. Supreme Court or Gov. Rick Perry acts in his favor,
Medellin, 33, will die for the 1993 rape-strangulation of two teenage
Houston girls, Jennifer Ertman and Elizabeth Peña.

Jennifer's father, Randy Ertman, dismissed international opposition to the
execution.

"It's just a last-ditch effort to keep the scumbag breathing," Ertman
said.
"He never should have been breathing in the first place. I don't care, I
really don't care what anyone thinks about this except Texas. I love
Texas.
Texas is in my blood."

At issue is Texas' refusal to hold a hearing to determine whether
Medellin's
defense was harmed by his inability to confer with Mexican consular
officials at the time of his arrest. A suspect's right to talk with his
consulate is guaranteed by the United Nations' Vienna Convention on
Consular
Relations, to which the United States is a party.

Medellin insists he told both Houston police and Harris County officers
that
he is a Mexican citizen. Prosecutors say the killer never informed
authorities of his nationality.

In a sworn statement, Medellin said he learned that the Mexican Consulate
could possibly help him in 1997, four years after his arrest. He
unsuccessfully petitioned the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals on the issue
in 1998.

In 2004, the U.N.'s world court, responding to a Mexican lawsuit against
the
United States, ordered that hearings be held for Medellin and dozens of
other inmates denied their consular rights. In 2005, President Bush called
for the hearings to be held. Texas challenged the decision, and the
Supreme
Court determined that only Congress could mandate such action. In July,
the
world court ordered Medellin's execution be stayed.

Perry has argued Texas isn't bound by the decisions of international
courts
and that the state is determined to hold killers, regardless of their
nationality, responsible for their crimes.

Texas has rebuffed not only the U.N. and Bush, but Secretary of State
Condoleezza Rice, U.S. Attorney General Michael Mukasey and the judicial
arm
of the Organization of American States, which has demanded Medellin
receive
a new trial.

As politicians worried about the impact on Americans arrested in foreign
countries should Texas fail to honor the world court order, prison
officials
moved Medellin to a special death row cell, where he will be held under
constant video surveillance until he is driven to Huntsville's death
house.

A tragic tale

The big city wept when little Jennifer Ertman and Elizabeth Peña died.

Students at Waltrip High School, Jennifer was 14, and Elizabeth had just
turned 16. Their lives were filled with the things that occupy teenage
girls. Friends recalled Elizabeth, who was beginning to dabble with
makeup,
as a "social butterfly." Jennifer tried her hand at basketball before
concluding she wasn't cut out for athletics.

On June 24, 1993, the girls were at a party at a friend's apartment when
they realized the lateness of the hour. Following the railroad tracks
through T.C. Jester Park, they concluded, would shave 10 minutes off their
trip to Elizabeth's Oak Forest home.

As the girls made their way past a thicket near White Oak Bayou, they
stumbled onto the tail end of a drunken gang initiation. When they
blundered
into the group of youths, Medellin - 5 feet, 5 inches tall and weighing
just
135 pounds - grabbed Elizabeth and flipped her to the ground. Jennifer,
drawn by Elizabeth's scream, turned to help and was herself captured.

As the teens cried and struggled, six gang members took turns raping them.

Finally, gang leader Peter Cantu told Medellin, "We're going to have to
kill
them."

Gang members Derrick O'Brien and Raul Villarreal looped a belt around
Jennifer's throat, pulling with such force that the belt broke. Cantu,
Medellin and Efrain Perez strangled Elizabeth with a shoelace. Then they
stomped on the girls' throats for good measure.

Four days later, police, acting on a tip from a gang member's brother,
found
the teens' bodies, badly decomposed in the summer heat.

The victims were identified through dental records.

Judge Cathy Cochran, a member of the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals,
which
last week rejected his appeals, wrote that Medellin bragged to his friends
that the victims had been virgins until they were attacked by the gang.

"His written confession," Cochran wrote, "displayed a callous, cruel and
cavalier attitude toward the two girls that he had raped and helped to
murder. Surely no juror or judge will ever forget his words or his sordid
deeds."

O'Brien was first to be executed, going to his death in July 2006 with the
parting words: "I am sorry. I have always been sorry."

Cantu, also convicted of capital murder, awaits a death date.

Medellin, who grew up in poverty amid drug abuse and an unstable home
environment, twice refused to be interviewed for this story.

But on his Web site, posted by a Canadian anti-death penalty group, he
claims: "I'm where I am because I made an adolescent choice. That's it!

"My life is in black and white like old western movies," he wrote. "But
unlike the movies, the good guys don't always finish first."

'Uncaring and hateful'

This time, death penalty opponents believe, the sovereign state of Texas
has
gone too far.

"Most of our friends abroad have long since come to the conclusion that
this
country, on this topic, just doesn't get it," said Southern Methodist
University history professor Rick Halperin. "This state is seen as
uncaring
and hateful. And this case is just right on the top."

The Medellin case will solidify stereotypical views of the Lone Star
State,
said Halperin, president of the Texas Coalition to Abolish the Death
Penalty
and former board chairman of Amnesty International USA.

Cochran, however, disagreed in her appeals court concurrence. "Some
societies may judge our death penalty barbaric," she wrote. "Most Texans,
however, consider death a just penalty in certain rare circumstances. Many
Europeans disagree. So be it."

The politics of capital punishment aside, some legal observers worry that
the United States may suffer as a result of Texas' noncompliance with the
world court order.

"Outside of Texas this is a huge diplomatic misstep," said Columbia Law
School professor Sarah Cleveland. " ... Unfortunately, I doubt that the
international community is likely to brush this off as simply the actions
of
Texas. In the international community (and under all U.S. treaty
obligations) the United States is responsible for Texas' actions."

Wide-ranging effect

If the United States fails to observe its treaty commitments, said
Cleveland, co-director of the Human Rights Institute, other nations might
be
inclined to disregard agreements when they become inconvenient.

Affected could be treaties ranging from those mandating protection for
foreign nationals to nuclear nonproliferation.

Texas Sen. Rodney Ellis, D-Houston, a frequent traveler abroad, said he
fears Texas' noncompliance will put American military personnel and
civilians at risk.

In ruling that Bush could not unilaterally force states to hold hearings
to
consider Vienna Convention violations, the Supreme Court noted that power
lies in Congress.

Within weeks, U.S. Rep. Howard Berman, D-Calif., introduced such a bill.
It
is pending in the House Judiciary Committee and can't be enacted until
next
year.



Nose Kisses,

CatNipped


I would call this a "can of worms" topic-wise....but since you asked:
Who appointed this "Columbia Law Professor" the last word on what
the "international community" will do? Why is she the final authority?


I really didn't want to get involved in this discussion, but really, what's
with all the hate for the Columbia law professor? I just want to point out
that nobody is claiming that this law professor is a "final authority," but
since she is a law professor, she probably knows a bit more than the layman
about such cases and their implications, and the newspaper approached her as
an expert, not to deliver a judgement, but to deliver an informed view about
those implications, which wouldn't necessarily be evident to me or you.
Newspaper reporters keep Rolodexes of such experts to consult.


Theresa, Stinky and Dante
drtmuirATearthlink.net

Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh


  #13  
Old August 5th 08, 12:22 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Sjouke Burry
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 83
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)

CatNipped wrote:
This case hits rather close to home and I was wondering if it were possible
for us to discuss this rationally. I can sort of see both sides of the
issue.

?????????
could you state it in less than 5 pages??
  #14  
Old August 5th 08, 12:24 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Kreisleriana[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,817
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)



"hopitus" wrote in message
...
On Aug 4, 4:16 pm, "Kreisleriana" wrote:
"hopitus" wrote in message

...
On Aug 4, 1:15 pm, "CatNipped" wrote:



This case hits rather close to home and I was wondering if it were
possible
for us to discuss this rationally. I can sort of see both sides of the
issue.


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5922356.html


"Texas. It's like a whole other country."


Coined to promote tourism, that wry verbal wink at the state's mythic
image
has assumed a literal meaning as Texas finds itself in defiance of the
United Nations, the Organization of American States and national leaders
in
its planned Tuesday execution of Mexican citizen Jose Medellin.


Unless the U.S. Supreme Court or Gov. Rick Perry acts in his favor,
Medellin, 33, will die for the 1993 rape-strangulation of two teenage
Houston girls, Jennifer Ertman and Elizabeth Peña.


Jennifer's father, Randy Ertman, dismissed international opposition to
the
execution.


"It's just a last-ditch effort to keep the scumbag breathing," Ertman
said.
"He never should have been breathing in the first place. I don't care, I
really don't care what anyone thinks about this except Texas. I love
Texas.
Texas is in my blood."


At issue is Texas' refusal to hold a hearing to determine whether
Medellin's
defense was harmed by his inability to confer with Mexican consular
officials at the time of his arrest. A suspect's right to talk with his
consulate is guaranteed by the United Nations' Vienna Convention on
Consular
Relations, to which the United States is a party.


Medellin insists he told both Houston police and Harris County officers
that
he is a Mexican citizen. Prosecutors say the killer never informed
authorities of his nationality.


In a sworn statement, Medellin said he learned that the Mexican
Consulate
could possibly help him in 1997, four years after his arrest. He
unsuccessfully petitioned the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals on the
issue
in 1998.


In 2004, the U.N.'s world court, responding to a Mexican lawsuit against
the
United States, ordered that hearings be held for Medellin and dozens of
other inmates denied their consular rights. In 2005, President Bush
called
for the hearings to be held. Texas challenged the decision, and the
Supreme
Court determined that only Congress could mandate such action. In July,
the
world court ordered Medellin's execution be stayed.


Perry has argued Texas isn't bound by the decisions of international
courts
and that the state is determined to hold killers, regardless of their
nationality, responsible for their crimes.


Texas has rebuffed not only the U.N. and Bush, but Secretary of State
Condoleezza Rice, U.S. Attorney General Michael Mukasey and the judicial
arm
of the Organization of American States, which has demanded Medellin
receive
a new trial.


As politicians worried about the impact on Americans arrested in foreign
countries should Texas fail to honor the world court order, prison
officials
moved Medellin to a special death row cell, where he will be held under
constant video surveillance until he is driven to Huntsville's death
house.


A tragic tale


The big city wept when little Jennifer Ertman and Elizabeth Peña died.


Students at Waltrip High School, Jennifer was 14, and Elizabeth had just
turned 16. Their lives were filled with the things that occupy teenage
girls. Friends recalled Elizabeth, who was beginning to dabble with
makeup,
as a "social butterfly." Jennifer tried her hand at basketball before
concluding she wasn't cut out for athletics.


On June 24, 1993, the girls were at a party at a friend's apartment when
they realized the lateness of the hour. Following the railroad tracks
through T.C. Jester Park, they concluded, would shave 10 minutes off
their
trip to Elizabeth's Oak Forest home.


As the girls made their way past a thicket near White Oak Bayou, they
stumbled onto the tail end of a drunken gang initiation. When they
blundered
into the group of youths, Medellin - 5 feet, 5 inches tall and weighing
just
135 pounds - grabbed Elizabeth and flipped her to the ground. Jennifer,
drawn by Elizabeth's scream, turned to help and was herself captured.


As the teens cried and struggled, six gang members took turns raping
them.


Finally, gang leader Peter Cantu told Medellin, "We're going to have to
kill
them."


Gang members Derrick O'Brien and Raul Villarreal looped a belt around
Jennifer's throat, pulling with such force that the belt broke. Cantu,
Medellin and Efrain Perez strangled Elizabeth with a shoelace. Then they
stomped on the girls' throats for good measure.


Four days later, police, acting on a tip from a gang member's brother,
found
the teens' bodies, badly decomposed in the summer heat.


The victims were identified through dental records.


Judge Cathy Cochran, a member of the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals,
which
last week rejected his appeals, wrote that Medellin bragged to his
friends
that the victims had been virgins until they were attacked by the gang.


"His written confession," Cochran wrote, "displayed a callous, cruel and
cavalier attitude toward the two girls that he had raped and helped to
murder. Surely no juror or judge will ever forget his words or his
sordid
deeds."


O'Brien was first to be executed, going to his death in July 2006 with
the
parting words: "I am sorry. I have always been sorry."


Cantu, also convicted of capital murder, awaits a death date.


Medellin, who grew up in poverty amid drug abuse and an unstable home
environment, twice refused to be interviewed for this story.


But on his Web site, posted by a Canadian anti-death penalty group, he
claims: "I'm where I am because I made an adolescent choice. That's it!


"My life is in black and white like old western movies," he wrote. "But
unlike the movies, the good guys don't always finish first."


'Uncaring and hateful'


This time, death penalty opponents believe, the sovereign state of Texas
has
gone too far.


"Most of our friends abroad have long since come to the conclusion that
this
country, on this topic, just doesn't get it," said Southern Methodist
University history professor Rick Halperin. "This state is seen as
uncaring
and hateful. And this case is just right on the top."


The Medellin case will solidify stereotypical views of the Lone Star
State,
said Halperin, president of the Texas Coalition to Abolish the Death
Penalty
and former board chairman of Amnesty International USA.


Cochran, however, disagreed in her appeals court concurrence. "Some
societies may judge our death penalty barbaric," she wrote. "Most
Texans,
however, consider death a just penalty in certain rare circumstances.
Many
Europeans disagree. So be it."


The politics of capital punishment aside, some legal observers worry
that
the United States may suffer as a result of Texas' noncompliance with
the
world court order.


"Outside of Texas this is a huge diplomatic misstep," said Columbia Law
School professor Sarah Cleveland. " ... Unfortunately, I doubt that the
international community is likely to brush this off as simply the
actions
of
Texas. In the international community (and under all U.S. treaty
obligations) the United States is responsible for Texas' actions."


Wide-ranging effect


If the United States fails to observe its treaty commitments, said
Cleveland, co-director of the Human Rights Institute, other nations
might
be
inclined to disregard agreements when they become inconvenient.


Affected could be treaties ranging from those mandating protection for
foreign nationals to nuclear nonproliferation.


Texas Sen. Rodney Ellis, D-Houston, a frequent traveler abroad, said he
fears Texas' noncompliance will put American military personnel and
civilians at risk.


In ruling that Bush could not unilaterally force states to hold hearings
to
consider Vienna Convention violations, the Supreme Court noted that
power
lies in Congress.


Within weeks, U.S. Rep. Howard Berman, D-Calif., introduced such a bill.
It
is pending in the House Judiciary Committee and can't be enacted until
next
year.




Nose Kisses,


CatNipped


I would call this a "can of worms" topic-wise....but since you asked:
Who appointed this "Columbia Law Professor" the last word on what
the "international community" will do? Why is she the final authority?

I really didn't want to get involved in this discussion, but really,
what's
with all the hate for the Columbia law professor? I just want to point
out
that nobody is claiming that this law professor is a "final authority,"
but
since she is a law professor, she probably knows a bit more than the
layman
about such cases and their implications, and the newspaper approached her
as
an expert, not to deliver a judgement, but to deliver an informed view
about
those implications, which wouldn't necessarily be evident to me or you.
Newspaper reporters keep Rolodexes of such experts to consult.

Theresa, Stinky and Dante
drtmuirATearthlink.net

Stinky Pictures:http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh


HellllO! Because I question something and also think it's amusing, now
I "hate"
a law professor in one of 'Nipped's news stories? Get a grip. Granted
Indiana
residents may not welcome this heat like I do, but hey - I was not NOT
questioning
the woman's authority....just the news story's quoting her as an
"international
community" expert on what the international reaction would be to this
Texas
inmate's execution. Give Stinky old man a huggy from one of his ardent
fans.


He's right here-- will do!

--
Theresa, Stinky and Dante
drtmuirATearthlink.net

Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh



  #15  
Old August 5th 08, 02:12 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
CatNipped[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,003
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)

"Sjouke Burry" wrote in message
. ..
CatNipped wrote:
This case hits rather close to home and I was wondering if it were
possible for us to discuss this rationally. I can sort of see both sides
of the issue.

?????????
could you state it in less than 5 pages??


Not really! ;

Chin Skritches,

CatNipped


  #16  
Old August 5th 08, 04:05 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
William Hamblen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 261
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)

On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 12:46:48 -0700, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
wrote:

I thought we fought a civil war to determine whether individual states
could ignore national laws? I get the impression Texas (and Arizona)
think the South won?


The consitutional point is that treaties and conventions are not
self-enforcing. The Congress has to legislate. Otherwise you are
giving legislative power to the executive. I'm sure you are not in
favor of the President being able to rule by decree.

Bud
  #17  
Old August 6th 08, 02:49 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Matthew[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,287
Default An ending to the discussion

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/05/...=ib_topstories


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Mexican national Jose Ernesto Medellin, whose death
penalty conviction in the rape and murder of two teen girls sparked
international controversy, was put to death in Texas on Tuesday night,
prison officials said.

Jose Ernesto Medellin was put to death for his part in the gang rape and
murder of two Texas girls.

Corrections spokeswoman Michelle Lyons said Medellin died at 9:57 CT.
The U.S. Supreme Court denied the last-ditch appeal of a Mexican national on
Texas' death row late Tuesday, paving the way for him to be executed for a
pair of brutal slayings, state corrections officials said.
Texas Department of Criminal Justice spokeswoman Michelle Lyons said about
9:15 p.m. that the court had turned down the appeal of Jose Ernesto
Medellin.
Medellin's capital appeal was an unusual one that pitted President Bush
against his home state in a dispute over federal authority, local
sovereignty and foreign treaties.
At issue is an international court's ruling that Medellin and about 50 other
Mexicans have been illegally denied access to their home country's consul.
Allowing travelers such access when they are arrested abroad is common
practice.
At about 7 p.m., an hour after the execution could have taken place, a
spokesman for the Texas Department of Corrections said the execution was in
a "holding pattern."
The high court in March ruled for Texas, allowing the execution to proceed,
but Medellin's lawyers filed a flurry of emergency appeals in state and
federal courts, requesting a stay. They argued that Congress and the Texas
Legislature should be given a chance to pass legislation that would give
their client a new hearing before punishment is carried out.
Such a bill is pending in Congress, but no recent action has been taken in
either chamber. In an August 1 letter, three Democrats on the House
Judiciary Committee urged Texas Gov. Rick Perry, a Republican, to postpone
executions "in order to provide Congress with the time needed to consider
this situation."

Texas lawmakers will not gather in session until January.
The case centers on whether the state has to give in to a demand by the
president that the prisoner be allowed new hearings and sentencing. Bush
made that demand reluctantly after an international court concluded Medellin
and 50 other Mexicans on American death rows were improperly denied access
to their consulate upon arrest, a violation of a treaty signed by the United
States decades ago.
Medellin's execution will be the first of what promises to be a busy month
at the state's death chamber in Huntsville. Five other men are scheduled to
die by lethal injection in the next four weeks, including one on Thursday.
Medellin was 18 when he participated in the June 1993 gang rape and murder
of two Harris County girls, Jennifer Ertman, 14, and Elizabeth Pena, 16. He
was convicted of the crimes and sentenced to death.
The prisoner's lawyers argued Mexican consular officials were not able to
meet with the man until after his conviction.
Thirteen Texas death row inmates from Mexico will be affected by the high
court ruling. Only Oklahoma has commuted a capital inmate's sentence to life
in prison in response to the international judgment.
The International Court of Justice ruled in 2004 that the United States had
violated the rights of the prisoners, in part because officials and
prosecutors failed to notify their home country, from which the men could
have received legal and other assistance. Those judges ordered the United
States to provide "review and reconsideration" of the convictions and
sentences of the Mexican prisoners.
The world court again last month ordered the United States to do everything
within its authority to stop Medellin's execution until his case could be
further reviewed.
Based in The Hague, Netherlands, the International Court of Justice resolves
disputes between nations over treaty obligations. The United States is a
signatory to the 1963 Vienna Convention, which lays out rights of people
detained in other nations. The appeal the Supreme Court ruled on in March
turned on what role each branch of government plays to give force to
international treaty obligations.
Chief Justice John Roberts wrote for a 6-3 majority that the international
court's judgments cannot be forced upon individual states. The president
also cannot "establish binding rules of decision that pre-empt contrary
state law," he said, and the treaty itself does not specifically require
states to remedy any treaty violations.
The chief justice added that the international court "is not domestic law,"
thereby restricting the president's power over states. "The executive's
narrow and strictly limited authority to settle international claims
disputes pursuant to an executive agreement cannot stretch so far as to
support the current presidential memorandum" that would force Texas to
conduct a new state trial, he wrote.
The Mexican government filed an appeal with the international court against
the United States in January 2003, alleging violations of international law.
Medellin filed his own federal and state appeals based on similar
complaints, as well as a claim of ineffective counsel. Medellin has the
support of the European Union and several international human rights groups.
Bush said he disagreed with the international court's conclusions, but
agreed to comply with them. In a February 28, 2005, executive order, he
said, "The United States will discharge its international obligations ... by
having state courts give effect to the decision in accordance with general
principles of comity in cases filed by the 51 Mexican nationals addressed in
that decision."


The Bush White House typically backs states in their power to carry out
executions, but Justice Department officials said that in these instances,
the president's power to conduct foreign policy outweighed states'
interests.
The Supreme Court originally heard the Medellin case in 2005 but did not
rule on the merits. It waited instead for lower courts to resolve the
federalism angle before rehearing the appeal in October.


  #18  
Old August 7th 08, 04:36 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Lesley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,700
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)

On Aug 4, 1:57*pm, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
wrote:
*These were not
"savages", but people who had adopted the White Man's ways, were
educated in Eastern U.S. schools, and had become prosperous farmers and
businessmen. (Since their territory included a good chunk of the Deep
South, many had lavish plantations, and were slave-owners.)



This is very strange.....

A couple of days ago, Dave, me and Jim the Gardener were sitting in
the local chatting and we were trying to remember the name of the
tribe of Indians who adopted white man's ways to the extent that some
of them were even slave owners only to still have their land taken
away and to be moved to poorer land and none of us could remember
their name....so today I glance down a thread on this list and there's
the answer to the question that plagued the three of us all night

(cue X-Files music)

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs
  #19  
Old August 7th 08, 06:55 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Will in New Haven
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,073
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)

On Aug 4, 4:03*pm, "CatNipped" wrote:
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in message

...







Daniel Mahoney wrote:
On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 14:15:23 -0500, CatNipped wrote:


This case hits rather close to home and I was wondering if it were
possible for us to discuss this rationally. *I can sort of see both
sides of the issue.


I can too, kind of. I used to support the death penalty in cases of
extreme wanton violence, and this would qualify. In recent years, though,
I've come to rethink that and now believe that no human being has the
right to determine the life or death of another.


However, I think the biggest point here is the one make by Senator Ellis.
The US cannot thumb it's nose at the rest of the world with impunity. If
the US chooses to ignore the findings of the World Court, then other
countries would be justified in ignoring World Court findings regarding
US citizens. To assert that we need not be concerned with the findings of
extra-territorial legislative bodies is to make those same bodies unable
to protect US citizens.


Besides, regardless of whether the killer informed the cops that he was a
Mexican national at the time of his arrest, that does have a bearing and
he was entitled to speak with a Mexican consular officer. That warrants
at the least a retrial. Ignoring the court that hears Geneva Convention
cases? The very thought
makes me shudder.


I thought we fought a civil war to determine whether individual states
could ignore national laws? *I get the impression Texas (and Arizona)
think the South won?


Actually, according to our Constitution, state laws *should* supersede
Federal law in all but cases involving crossing state lines. *Don't let
anybody kid you, the Civil war was about the north not getting its grubby
hands on taxes generated by cotton plantations (as all wars throughout
history, no matter the lip service paid to ideological beliefs, it is
*always* about money).


You studied history at the wrong time. But the War of Northern
Aggression was certainly about economics, and a host of other things.

--
Will in New Haven
  #20  
Old August 7th 08, 06:57 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Will in New Haven
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Posts: 5,073
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)

On Aug 4, 4:11*pm, "CatNipped" wrote:
"Will in New Haven" wrote in ...
On Aug 4, 3:33 pm, Daniel Mahoney wrote:

On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 14:15:23 -0500, CatNipped wrote:
This case hits rather close to home and I was wondering if it were
possible
for us to discuss this rationally. I can sort of see both sides of the
issue.


I can too, kind of. I used to support the death penalty in cases of
extreme wanton violence, and this would qualify. In recent years, though,
I've come to rethink that and now believe that no human being has the
right to determine the life or death of another.


i'm not gung-ho in favor of the death penalty. In general, I'm against
it. But I don't see two sides to this issue. I see two little girls. I
don't think the state of Texas should execute this guy but I wouldn't
lift a finger to help him. If someone killed him and I were on the
jury, I would vote to acquit.

===============================================

The two sides I see... on the one hand, fry the b*stard who so cruelly, and
with no obvious regrets except that he got caught, raped and killed two
little girls. *On the other side - American citizens who may be affected if
treaties are ignored because of this incident (not *any* bleeding heart
feelings that he should be spared).

Just his justifications for this horrific act...

"I'm where I am because I made an adolescent choice. That's it!

"My life is in black and white like old western movies," he wrote. "But
unlike the movies, the good guys don't always finish first."

...are enough to make me want to put the injection in his arm myself. *"Good
guys???!" *"GOOD GUYS????!!!!!!" *Ohmydeargawd!


I think they just executed him, by the way. Unless I misread the
news.

--
Will in New Haven

 




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