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Help, my cat is a serial killer!



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 17th 07, 12:58 PM posted to alt.cats,alt.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats.health+behav,rec.pets.cats.misc
Garret Swayne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default Help, my cat is a serial killer!

Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats.
But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to
pick up the broken body of a terrified, mortally wounded bird! There are a
lot of instincts which we civilized types would like to discourage in our
kitty companions! The two suggestions that I found most interesting we

-to stick a bell on Zack's neck to warn the birds of his stealthy approach
(This is a practical suggestion I will seriously consider.)

-to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for it's
really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
"ungracious".

Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
"positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and cherish?
If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to
figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a dead
carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that they
really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"? And that by my
expressing displeasure, I will only encourage more of the offensive
behavior? I would think that by praising the animal, that's what would
encourage more of the killing behavior! But I'm open to being educated
about this, from valid scientific sources.

The question I'm really asking is this: Is there any way in the world to
teach a cat the concept of compassion? That'd be a nice trick, eh? Like
maybe a cat who's been traumatized by a larger predatory animal like a dog
or a cayote might be able to develop some sense of identification with the
smaller victims they terrorize? No, I'm not suggesting throwing the cat to
a pack of cayotes! But I'm wondering, can cats be taught compassion, and if
so, how?

-Garret


"Garret Swayne" wrote in message
ink.net...
My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey
that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?

-Garret
garret at garretswayne dot com



  #12  
Old June 17th 07, 01:54 PM posted to alt.cats,alt.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats.health+behav,rec.pets.cats.misc
Barbara
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Help, my cat is a serial killer!

I have some stray cats in the neighborhood who hang out in my yard, and when
the birds come around to eat their food, they just look at them like
"eh...you again..ok". My cats indoors, start "chirping" at them. Not sure if
they'd know what to do with them if they were allowed out.

--
A hug a day keeps the blues away
"Garret Swayne" wrote in message
nk.net...
Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats.
But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to
pick up the broken body of a terrified, mortally wounded bird! There are
a lot of instincts which we civilized types would like to discourage in
our kitty companions! The two suggestions that I found most interesting
we

-to stick a bell on Zack's neck to warn the birds of his stealthy approach
(This is a practical suggestion I will seriously consider.)

-to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for it's
really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
"ungracious".

Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
"positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and
cherish? If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart
enough to figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather
than a dead carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to
suggest that they really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"? And
that by my expressing displeasure, I will only encourage more of the
offensive behavior? I would think that by praising the animal, that's
what would encourage more of the killing behavior! But I'm open to being
educated about this, from valid scientific sources.

The question I'm really asking is this: Is there any way in the world to
teach a cat the concept of compassion? That'd be a nice trick, eh? Like
maybe a cat who's been traumatized by a larger predatory animal like a dog
or a cayote might be able to develop some sense of identification with the
smaller victims they terrorize? No, I'm not suggesting throwing the cat
to a pack of cayotes! But I'm wondering, can cats be taught compassion,
and if so, how?

-Garret


"Garret Swayne" wrote in message
ink.net...
My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home
prey that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?

-Garret
garret at garretswayne dot com





  #13  
Old June 17th 07, 04:51 PM posted to alt.cats,alt.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats.health+behav,rec.pets.cats.misc
Dan Espen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Help, my cat is a serial killer!

"Garret Swayne" writes:

-to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for it's
really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
"ungracious".

Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
"positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and cherish?
If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to
figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a dead
carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that they
really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"?


I don't think looking at it as a "gift" is the right perpective.
As you say, it's too complex a trait to attribute to a cat.

Mother cats will bring home kills for the kittens.
That may be the basis of the evolution of the instinct.
Instincts aren't reasoned, they are built in.
Most likely the instinct operates in females even when they don't
have kittens and in males even though they don't normally provide
food for kittens.

After a cat kills it's prey and eats it's fill it is no longer hungry
and it's no longer satisfying the hunting instinct.

Therefore weaker instincts are going to take over.
It's going to return home, why not take the animal with it?
It's not a complex behavior, it doesn't require complex motives
to operate.


We once had a mother cat bring home a full grown pheasant.
Small cat, really large bird.

  #14  
Old June 17th 07, 05:06 PM posted to alt.cats,alt.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats.health+behav,rec.pets.cats.misc
KMP
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default Help, my cat is a serial killer!

Garret Swayne wrote:
Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats.
But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to
pick up the broken body of a terrified, mortally wounded bird! There are a
lot of instincts which we civilized types would like to discourage in our
kitty companions! The two suggestions that I found most interesting we

-to stick a bell on Zack's neck to warn the birds of his stealthy approach
(This is a practical suggestion I will seriously consider.)

-to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for it's
really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
"ungracious".

Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
"positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and cherish?
If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to
figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a dead
carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that they
really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"? And that by my
expressing displeasure, I will only encourage more of the offensive
behavior? I would think that by praising the animal, that's what would
encourage more of the killing behavior! But I'm open to being educated
about this, from valid scientific sources.

The question I'm really asking is this: Is there any way in the world to
teach a cat the concept of compassion? That'd be a nice trick, eh? Like
maybe a cat who's been traumatized by a larger predatory animal like a dog
or a cayote might be able to develop some sense of identification with the
smaller victims they terrorize? No, I'm not suggesting throwing the cat to
a pack of cayotes! But I'm wondering, can cats be taught compassion, and if
so, how?

-Garret



My cat was traumatized by a dog when she was a little bitty and shows
no mercy to anything smaller than her - including my hand. So it might
have to be assaulted by something smaller to realize that brawn doesn't
always work. Just sayin'....
Kathy
  #15  
Old June 17th 07, 10:15 PM posted to alt.cats,alt.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats.health+behav,rec.pets.cats.misc
William Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 349
Default Help, my cat is a serial killer!


"Dan Espen" wrote in message
...
"Garret Swayne" writes:

-to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for
it's
really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
"ungracious".

Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
"positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and
cherish?
If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to
figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a
dead
carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that
they
really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"?


I don't think looking at it as a "gift" is the right perpective.
As you say, it's too complex a trait to attribute to a cat.

Mother cats will bring home kills for the kittens.
That may be the basis of the evolution of the instinct.
Instincts aren't reasoned, they are built in.
Most likely the instinct operates in females even when they don't
have kittens and in males even though they don't normally provide
food for kittens.

After a cat kills it's prey and eats it's fill it is no longer hungry
and it's no longer satisfying the hunting instinct.

Therefore weaker instincts are going to take over.
It's going to return home, why not take the animal with it?
It's not a complex behavior, it doesn't require complex motives
to operate.


We once had a mother cat bring home a full grown pheasant.
Small cat, really large bird.

Large birds of prey will sometimes kill cats....I had a cat who was almost
killed by a large osprey....It swooped down onto my rear deck while the cat
was sunning itself, and almost got it....Fortunately, the cat door to our
bedroom was right next to the cat, so it escaped inside before the bird
could get her......but it was a close call......


  #16  
Old June 17th 07, 11:31 PM posted to alt.cats,alt.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats.health+behav,rec.pets.cats.misc
Baldoni XXV
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Help, my cat is a serial killer!

William Graham submitted this idea :
"Alison" wrote in message
...
"Garret Swayne" wrote in message
ink.net...
My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey
that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?

-Garret
garret at garretswayne dot com



You could put a liberator collar on him though that won't help with slugs
and things.
http://www.liberators.com.au/

Cats are hunters so is natural for them to bring their prey home.
Alison


Yes. At least mine puts the bodies on the floor somewhere. (usually the
bathroom floor) I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on his
pillow........:^)


My female cat does all the hunting.

My lazy tomcat then stuffs dead mice under the furniture.

--
Count Baldoni

BALDONI REX ROMANORUM


  #17  
Old June 17th 07, 11:32 PM posted to alt.cats,alt.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats.health+behav,rec.pets.cats.misc
Baldoni XXV
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Help, my cat is a serial killer!

on 17/06/2007, William Graham supposed :
"The Horny Goat" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:29:09 -0700, "William Graham"
wrote:

Yes. At least mine puts the bodies on the floor somewhere. (usually the
bathroom floor) I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on
his pillow........:^)


One of the defining moments of my teen years was when our cat brought
my mother a bird. It was 30 years ago and I still remember her
over-reaction even though she had had cats in her life since girlhood.


Yeah...I'm always afraid I will insult them if I don't show pleasure....After
all, they are giving you a gift to pay you back for all the food you give
them....When you go to the supermarket, I figure they think you are out
hunting....


I never thought of it like that.

--
Count Baldoni

BALDONI REX ROMANORUM


  #18  
Old June 18th 07, 07:05 PM posted to alt.cats,alt.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats.health+behav,rec.pets.cats.misc
Lis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 144
Default Help, my cat is a serial killer!

On Jun 17, 7:58 am, "Garret Swayne" wrote:
Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats.
But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to
pick up the broken body of a terrified, mortally wounded bird! There are a
lot of instincts which we civilized types would like to discourage in our
kitty companions! The two suggestions that I found most interesting we

-to stick a bell on Zack's neck to warn the birds of his stealthy approach
(This is a practical suggestion I will seriously consider.)

-to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for it's
really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
"ungracious".

Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
"positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and cherish?
If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to
figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a dead
carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that they
really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"? And that by my
expressing displeasure, I will only encourage more of the offensive
behavior? I would think that by praising the animal, that's what would
encourage more of the killing behavior! But I'm open to being educated
about this, from valid scientific sources.


Cats are social animals; they're not pack hunters, but they are social
animals. Feral and semi-feral colonies have been videotaped; females
share prey with their offspring and with their sisters. They not only
babysit but actually nurse each other's kittens. Even the males, who
rove more, will sometimes share prey with the resident females.

When we bring cats into our homes, we make ourselvs part of their
"colony," their social grouping. And they respond to us in some ways
as if they were our kittens, in some ways as if we were their kittens,
in some ways as if we were their siblings. Sharing prey is a normal
and natural part of that. And no, even though sharing is normal for
them and they are bringing us a gift when they bring us prey, they are
not smart enough to figure out that it's not the kind of "gift" we
want--nor would they have much ability to bring us a different kind of
gift even if they did figure it out. It's not like they can take their
American Express card and pick up something nice at Nordstrom's, after
all. What they do is hunt, and they share with us what they catch. It
_should_ give you a warm glow.

It's too bad Zack has apparently focused on birds as his preferred
prey, rather than rodents. You do want to prevent or discourage that,
if you can. Keep him indoors, or put bells on his collar.

The question I'm really asking is this: Is there any way in the world to
teach a cat the concept of compassion? That'd be a nice trick, eh? Like
maybe a cat who's been traumatized by a larger predatory animal like a dog
or a cayote might be able to develop some sense of identification with the
smaller victims they terrorize? No, I'm not suggesting throwing the cat to
a pack of cayotes! But I'm wondering, can cats be taught compassion, and if
so, how?


No, you can't teach your cat compassion for members of its natural
prey species. They're cats, the most efficient predators on the planet
(number of species killed, number of individuals killed, hunting
success rate--cats are deadly hunters.) Sharing with colony members is
part of their repertoire; compassion for prey species is not. A cat
traumatized by a larger predator will not feel any sense of
identification with its own prey; it will just be a traumatized cat.

The most effective way of preventing your cat from killing the local
bird population is by keeping him indoors. If that's not practical,
put bells on his collar, and that will reduce his success rate.

Lis

  #19  
Old June 18th 07, 09:51 PM posted to alt.cats,alt.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats.health+behav,rec.pets.cats.misc
Dave F
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default Help, my cat is a serial killer!


"Garret Swayne" wrote in message
ink.net...
My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey
that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody
lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a
lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or
slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these
really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large
insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline
serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his
captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO,
take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of
****es him off, but I'm not sure what else to do.
I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas?

-Garret
garret at garretswayne dot com


I just read through this thread and the ignorance just amazes me. Read the
following and then do the right thing and keep your cat indoors where it
belongs.

http://www.wildliferescueleague.org/cats.html

http://www.abcbirds.org/cats/

Dave


  #20  
Old June 19th 07, 02:43 AM posted to alt.cats,alt.pets.cats,rec.pets.cats.health+behav,rec.pets.cats.misc
William Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 349
Default Help, my cat is a serial killer!


"Lis" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Jun 17, 7:58 am, "Garret Swayne" wrote:
Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats.
But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to
pick up the broken body of a terrified, mortally wounded bird! There are
a
lot of instincts which we civilized types would like to discourage in our
kitty companions! The two suggestions that I found most interesting
we

-to stick a bell on Zack's neck to warn the birds of his stealthy
approach
(This is a practical suggestion I will seriously consider.)

-to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for
it's
really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear
"ungracious".

Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical
about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe
"positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and
cherish?
If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to
figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a
dead
carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that
they
really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"? And that by my
expressing displeasure, I will only encourage more of the offensive
behavior? I would think that by praising the animal, that's what would
encourage more of the killing behavior! But I'm open to being educated
about this, from valid scientific sources.


Cats are social animals; they're not pack hunters, but they are social
animals. Feral and semi-feral colonies have been videotaped; females
share prey with their offspring and with their sisters. They not only
babysit but actually nurse each other's kittens. Even the males, who
rove more, will sometimes share prey with the resident females.

When we bring cats into our homes, we make ourselvs part of their
"colony," their social grouping. And they respond to us in some ways
as if they were our kittens, in some ways as if we were their kittens,
in some ways as if we were their siblings. Sharing prey is a normal
and natural part of that. And no, even though sharing is normal for
them and they are bringing us a gift when they bring us prey, they are
not smart enough to figure out that it's not the kind of "gift" we
want--nor would they have much ability to bring us a different kind of
gift even if they did figure it out. It's not like they can take their
American Express card and pick up something nice at Nordstrom's, after
all. What they do is hunt, and they share with us what they catch. It
_should_ give you a warm glow.

It's too bad Zack has apparently focused on birds as his preferred
prey, rather than rodents. You do want to prevent or discourage that,
if you can. Keep him indoors, or put bells on his collar.

The question I'm really asking is this: Is there any way in the world to
teach a cat the concept of compassion? That'd be a nice trick, eh? Like
maybe a cat who's been traumatized by a larger predatory animal like a
dog
or a cayote might be able to develop some sense of identification with
the
smaller victims they terrorize? No, I'm not suggesting throwing the cat
to
a pack of cayotes! But I'm wondering, can cats be taught compassion, and
if
so, how?


No, you can't teach your cat compassion for members of its natural
prey species. They're cats, the most efficient predators on the planet
(number of species killed, number of individuals killed, hunting
success rate--cats are deadly hunters.) Sharing with colony members is
part of their repertoire; compassion for prey species is not. A cat
traumatized by a larger predator will not feel any sense of
identification with its own prey; it will just be a traumatized cat.

The most effective way of preventing your cat from killing the local
bird population is by keeping him indoors. If that's not practical,
put bells on his collar, and that will reduce his success rate.

Lis

Yes....Our cats think of the raccoons we feed as part of the family, but
then, the raccoons are big enough to take care of themselves, and so it's
really the raccoons who don't kill the cats that I should be talking about.
The birds, even though we feed them, are considered fair game by the
cats....fortunately, the cats aren't fast enough to kill very many of
them.....I can only remember about three or four birds total in over 10
years, and we have fed many thousands of birds all Winter during that same
time period, so the birds are way ahead....We are careful to hang the bird
feeders out of the reach of the cats......Well fed cats aren't very good at
hunting.....It's not a matter of life and death for them, so they just play
at it.....It's significant that our feral cat never hunts for birds (or
anything else) at all. He has become totally dependent on our cat food, and
couldn't care less if he never had to hunt for anything again.
I doubt if you could teach your cats compassion....They have identified
over 100 different sounds cats make to communicate, and compassion is not
one of them.......


 




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