I'm Sorry

Joy wrote:

wrote in message
...

It sounds like you're saying that even if it's obvious, it's not good
form to state it openly - is that it?

Exactly. It's the same thing as seeing someone in a wheelchair and
commenting on that fact. It is rude, to say the least.

Why is that rude? Personally, I am far more uncomfortable when everyone
talks *around* something, like it's just so shameful and horrifying to
mention. I'm not advocating ridicule or criticism of someone, but a
matter-of-fact statement about something obvious, if it's necessary to
make that statement (for example, if you're talking about wheelchair
accessibility in a public place), is not rude, IMO.

And I do understand this from the receiving end, by the way. I'm a large
woman, and I find it embarrassing and even kind of insulting when people
stand around looking uncomfortable and Not Saying Anything, as though
it's so horrifying and tragic that one must never mention it. I'm fat,
what is so terrible? There are physical realities that come up, which
might need to be discussed in some circumstances, and I'd rather people
just be matter-of-fact about it, in the same way they would be about,
say, a very tall man.

(This is not an invitation to abuse or ridicule, btw. If someone doesn't
understand the difference between a put-down and a simple statement of
fact, their cognitive skills might need some development.)

--
Joyce ^..^

(To email me, remove the X's from my user name.)

On Jul 22, 2:30*pm, wrote:
I just think we should all give Kyla a break and not take her actions
to heart, because they seem motivated by a lot of pain and need, and
do not seem to be motivated by maliciousness or even thoughtlessness.

If you had stopped right there, it would have conveyed the same idea
(let's give her a break, she does not mean ill) without being
incredibly insensitive and cruel to someone who by your own admission,
is in pain.

Not cool.

Cheers.

Victor

wrote in message
...
Joy wrote:

wrote in message
...

It sounds like you're saying that even if it's obvious, it's not good
form to state it openly - is that it?

Exactly. It's the same thing as seeing someone in a wheelchair and
commenting on that fact. It is rude, to say the least.

Why is that rude?

Sheesh!!!

It's rude if you are commenting about something which that person has not
chosen to talk about first. If someone with an illness or disability wants
to talk about it, then they will bring it up in conversation themselves.
So, if Kyla is acting as she is because of a mental illness it is *her*
place to bring it up, not someone else's.

Also, you said yourself that you're not privy to Kyla's medical information,
so why do you feel the need to speculate upon it - possibly being 100% wrong
(and when you are spreading wrong information about someone, how is that
different from lying about someone)?

Personally, I wouldn't want someone "sticking up" for me by ascribing to me
an illness I might not have - I might just have wanted to be bitchy on
purpose!

You have upbraided others (including me) about posting, not speculation, but
a fact about someone, which you thought was too harsh and shouldn't have
been posted (such as pointing out cat abuse) - why is that OK for you to do,
but no one else?

Why should you be able to criticize someone for posting an un-PC joke, but
nobody else should criticize Kyla for being *much* more inappropriate to
someone who has just lost a loved one?

As I said several times now - I don't remember voting to elect a group
moderator or PC police!

CatNipped

Victor Martinez wrote:

On Jul 22, 2:30?pm, wrote:

I just think we should all give Kyla a break and not take her actions
to heart, because they seem motivated by a lot of pain and need, and
do not seem to be motivated by maliciousness or even thoughtlessness.

If you had stopped right there, it would have conveyed the same idea
(let's give her a break, she does not mean ill) without being
incredibly insensitive and cruel to someone who by your own admission,
is in pain.

I think I now own this subject line.

It's interesting to me that while several people have said I'm being
cruel and insensitive, not a single person has disagreed with my
conclusions. This tells me that these same people had already made
the same observation I had.

I didn't realize this, though. I thought I was offering an idea that
might not have occurred to others. People have been giving her a pretty
hard time about her behaviors. This tells me that they don't understand
that it's really not her fault. So I was offering a reason as to why.

For god's sake, someone else practically called her a "creepy stalker",
and you're saying I'm cruel?

--
Joyce ^..^

(To email me, remove the X's from my user name.)

CatNipped wrote:

It's rude if you are commenting about something which that person has not
chosen to talk about first. If someone with an illness or disability wants
to talk about it, then they will bring it up in conversation themselves.
So, if Kyla is acting as she is because of a mental illness it is *her*
place to bring it up, not someone else's.

This, from the person who called her a "creepy stalker".

--
Joyce ^..^

(To email me, remove the X's from my user name.)

CatNipped wrote:

Why should you be able to criticize someone for posting an un-PC joke, but
nobody else should criticize Kyla for being *much* more inappropriate to
someone who has just lost a loved one?

It's clear to most of us that, while some people were taken aback by Kyla's
post, she meant well.

When you can convince me that telling a racist joke is "well-meaning",
then maybe I'll see these two situations as analogous.

--
Joyce ^..^

(To email me, remove the X's from my user name.)

wrote in message
...
CatNipped wrote:

It's rude if you are commenting about something which that person has
not
chosen to talk about first. If someone with an illness or disability
wants
to talk about it, then they will bring it up in conversation themselves.
So, if Kyla is acting as she is because of a mental illness it is *her*
place to bring it up, not someone else's.

This, from the person who called her a "creepy stalker".

No, actually I said, "Asking for people's addresses, so you can send them
cards or letters, when you don't even know them, is sort of creepy to me in
a "stalkerish" sort of way."

*Not* the same thing at all.

If you had said, "Kyla is acting like she has emotional problems" that would
have been *MUCH* different from stating that "Kyla has some very severe
emotional problems and isunable to behave differently because of it." (and
then going on for paragraphs specifically outlining those supposed
problems). If you can't see that distinction, it isn't worth continuing to
argue with you about it.

CatNipped


--
Joyce ^..^

(To email me, remove the X's from my user name.)

wrote in message
...
CatNipped wrote:

Why should you be able to criticize someone for posting an un-PC joke,
but
nobody else should criticize Kyla for being *much* more inappropriate to
someone who has just lost a loved one?

It's clear to most of us that, while some people were taken aback by
Kyla's
post, she meant well.

It really doesn't matter what Kyla "meant" to do, what she *did* do was
highly inappropriate to (apparently) quite a few people and downright
insulting to a person who *IS* dealing with a "Socially Approved Reason" for
being in pain. *That* pain is no less than Kyla's supposed "emotional
problems" - so why is it OK on the one hand but not on the other?


When you can convince me that telling a racist joke is "well-meaning",
then maybe I'll see these two situations as analogous.

Nowhere did I say it was "well-meaning", and it's only *your* interpretation
that it was racist (as a few others have said, I took it as poking fun at
the national hysteria we have about terrorists).

What I *did* say was that I thought it was inappropriate for you to make
someone else feel uncomfortable about posting what she meant as a little
internet humor passed along. Would you want your every post monitored by
someone who will decide for the group what is and what isn't appropriate to
post?

So tell me this, why do you find it OK to hurt Pam, who is dealing with a
horrendous and painful situation, but it's not OK for others to tell Kyla
she was being inappropriate?

I've said it in different ways, trying to be polite, and that doesn't seem
to have penetrated, so I'll say it like this - who died and made you queen
of the newsgroup?

CatNipped


--
Joyce ^..^

(To email me, remove the X's from my user name.)

wrote in message
...
Victor Martinez wrote:


I didn't realize this, though. I thought I was offering an idea that
might not have occurred to others. People have been giving her a pretty
hard time about her behaviors. This tells me that they don't understand
that it's really not her fault. So I was offering a reason as to why.

My gawd, how patronizing is that - to Kyla and everyone else here? Please
don't ever stick up for me like that!


For god's sake, someone else practically called her a "creepy stalker",
and you're saying I'm cruel?

Clue - commenting on an action made by someone is a bit different than
ascribing (possible) motives, causes or illnesses to that someone in order
to excuse the action.

CatNipped


--
Joyce ^..^

(To email me, remove the X's from my user name.)

wrote in message
...
Joy wrote:

wrote in message
...

It sounds like you're saying that even if it's obvious, it's not
good
form to state it openly - is that it?

Exactly. It's the same thing as seeing someone in a wheelchair
and
commenting on that fact. It is rude, to say the least.

Why is that rude? Personally, I am far more uncomfortable when
everyone
talks *around* something, like it's just so shameful and horrifying
to
mention. I'm not advocating ridicule or criticism of someone, but a
matter-of-fact statement about something obvious, if it's necessary
to
make that statement (for example, if you're talking about wheelchair
accessibility in a public place), is not rude, IMO.

And I do understand this from the receiving end, by the way. I'm a
large
woman, and I find it embarrassing and even kind of insulting when
people
stand around looking uncomfortable and Not Saying Anything, as
though
it's so horrifying and tragic that one must never mention it. I'm
fat,
what is so terrible? There are physical realities that come up,
which
might need to be discussed in some circumstances, and I'd rather
people
just be matter-of-fact about it, in the same way they would be
about,
say, a very tall man.

(This is not an invitation to abuse or ridicule, btw. If someone
doesn't
understand the difference between a put-down and a simple statement
of
fact, their cognitive skills might need some development.)

And if someone doesn't understand certain social conventions, their
social skills might need some development. If they choose to ignore
social conventions for whatever reason, they may need to accept some
fallout.

Social convention. It is rude to state that someone is mentally ill,
either to their face or to others. (It is also rude to say a lot of
other personal things to or about them if they have not in fact
invited such comments)

Social convention. It is rude, when someone tells a joke, to say
"that isn't funny". You don't have to laugh. You don't have to
agree. You can turn away. You may want to reread what Pam posted,
and then your reply. Words like nasty, bigotry, stupid, dangerous,
attitudes. Pretty strong personal attack for something relatively
innocuous.

Social convention. If you have a condition (for lack of a better
word) that can make things difficult for you or for others, it is up
to you to own that and make it possible for others to make any
allowances that are necessary. I'm deaf and I lip read. I get very
tired of telling virtual strangers that I am deaf and lip read and
that I need them to look at me when they speak. Tough. Its my job
and I'm the only one that can do it. Same goes for a situation where
my weight might be an issue. If I need to sit at a table rather than
in a booth, it is up to me to say so. If I need a seatbelt extension
on an airplane, it is up to me to ask for one. Same goes for anyone
who is too short or too tall or can't open a bottle or whatever.

Jo