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I also have occasional reactions to alcohol that I don't think is related
to meds interaction, because it happened before I started taking them. It
makes me flush and get hot in localized areas such as my ears or cheeks.
Last time I had some beer (about 2/3 of a bottle), my whole face, my ears,
and my forearms got extremely hot and I broke out in a major sweat. My
forearms went bright red.

That's probably not a reaction to alcohol, but to tyramine, a product
of fermentation present in both red wine and beer (and in mature
cheese and pickled herring - pickled herring has by far the most).
Histamine is chemically similar, can be produced the same way and
has similar effects, as in scombrotoxin poisoning from spoiled oily
fish.

Most people metabolize tyramine with the monoamine oxidase enzymes
(there are at least two of them). One treatment for depression is
to block the activity of monoamine oxidases (MAO) with drugs known
as monoamine oxidase inhibitors - this raises the level of serotonin
in the body, since serotonin is also eliminated by MAO enzymes, and
hopefully the raised serotonin improves the mood. The problem is
that this also stops your body getting rid of tyramine. The result
is that if you eat or drink fermented products, you get *at least*
the symptoms you listed there, and maybe a massive increase in blood
pressure and sudden death from haemorrhagic stroke.

It may be that you have naturally low levels of MAO.

I got intimately familiar with this process when taking MAOI
antidepressants many years ago. There is no obvious effect on
tiny amounts of the forbidden foods, so you think can get away
with a bit more, and then *wham*. The resulting headache was
by far the worst pain I have ever experienced, much worse than
acute gall bladder blockage or a heart attack.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 http://www.campin.me.uk Twitter: JackCampin

Jack Campin wrote:

That's probably not a reaction to alcohol, but to tyramine, a product
of fermentation present in both red wine and beer (and in mature
cheese and pickled herring - pickled herring has by far the most).

Most people metabolize tyramine with the monoamine oxidase enzymes
(there are at least two of them). One treatment for depression is
to block the activity of monoamine oxidases (MAO) with drugs known
as monoamine oxidase inhibitors - this raises the level of serotonin
in the body, since serotonin is also eliminated by MAO enzymes

Hmm. Assuming I'm low in MAOs, how come I have so little serotonin? (I've
taken SSRIs for years.) I guess there are other mechanisms that lower
serotonin levels.

Are you saying that when I had that big reaction at a party recently,
where I had to lie down, if someone had taken my blood pressure at that
moment, it might have been very high? That's scary. I didn't get a
headache, though. Just a hot face and sweats.

Way back in the late 80s, I tried to go on a tricyclic antidepressant,
and had a bad reaction to it, so the doctor decided that class of drugs
probably wasn't great for me. Unfortunately, drugs like Prozac weren't
widely understood yet, and my doctor was reluctant to try me on it
because I tended toward anxiety and irritability when depressed, and
it was thought that Prozac would heighten those states. (When I started
taking it several years later, it did just the opposite.)

At the time I refused to try MAOIs because almost all the foods on the
forbidden list were my favorites - chocolate, coffee, aged cheese, red
wine. What?? That would've been enough to make me even more depressed.
I always thought those drugs provided depressed people with an easy way
to commit suicide - just eat a bunch of forbidden foods and have a stroke
(although I would be more afraid of *not* dying from that).

The problem is
that this also stops your body getting rid of tyramine. The result
is that if you eat or drink fermented products, you get *at least*
the symptoms you listed there

Fermented products? So that means no sauerkraut, soy sauce, yogurt,
miso, injera, sourdough bread or fish sauce (therefore, no Thai food)?
What would be the point of living?

Actually, I eat all these foods and have never had a bad reaction to
any of them. It's mostly red wine, and occasionally beer that cause it,
and I can usually drink beer without a reaction.

It's an interesting line of inquiry, though.

--
Joyce

In ,
hopitus typed:
On Nov 27, 1:36 am, bast wrote:
hopitus wrote:
You didn't address me about the flushing from alcohol ingestion but
if any help to you
wondering about it: I have a relative here (in-law) who doesn't
drink for that exact
reason you describe: she describes it as allergy to alcohol or
methanol or whatever booze is made up of.

It's intermittent, though. It never happened when I was younger. I
remember the first time it happened - I was in a Mexican restaurant,
drinking beer, when suddenly my ears got really hot. It was weird. I
thought maybe I had
a little sunburn there and the alcohol just made it feel more
obvious.
That was in my mid-30s. After that, it happened occasionally, but
not very often. Now it happens a lot more frequently. But there are
still times that I can drink without a problem. I don't drink very
often anyway, because it just makes me groggy, but sometimes I just
really want a glass of good red wine to go with a meal. (Or the
wonderful honey wine you can get at Ethiopian restaurants.)
Aren't allergies more consistent than that?


I dunno about consistency of allergies; mine are pretty much confined
to chronic rhinitis (stuffed
nasal passages, annoying but take no meds for; the meds raise bp) and
they come and go with
which way the ragweed or dust is blowing. For giggles....I left south
FL allergens, brief period here
with no symptoms till developing new allergies to local allergens.
Snork.

Being someone with chronic allergic rhinitis and seasonal allergic asthma (I
hate summer!) I have a theory about /allergen load/.

For example, in winter, I can usually eat a satay without suffering too
much, even though technically I'm allergic to peanuts (obviously not
*deathly* allergic). However, in summer, when the allergen load is obviously
greater (otherwise I wouldn't have asthma), if I eat a satay without taking
antihistamines first, I will suffer.

If you are allergic to ethanol, or some other chemical thats present in most
if not all alcoholic drinks, then if my theory is correct, you'll react far
more if your body is already dealing with a few allergens. If your allergen
count is low, then your body will be able to cope with a bit of alcohol
without your immune system freaking out.

That,or its just somethign else in *some* alcoholic beverages that you react
to, not the alcohol itself.

We'd have to do a controlled experiement.... :-)

Yowie

hopitus wrote:

Aren't allergies more consistent than that?

I dunno about consistency of allergies; mine are pretty much confined
to chronic rhinitis (stuffed
nasal passages, annoying but take no meds for; the meds raise bp) and
they come and go with
which way the ragweed or dust is blowing. For giggles....I left south
FL allergens, brief period here
with no symptoms till developing new allergies to local allergens.

I had a similar experience, but with a different ending, after moving
from Massachusetts (MA) to California. In MA, I had developed a lot of
pollen-related allergies over the years. The months of September and
October were passed in an antihistamine daze, exacerbated by the partial
deafness caused by blocked sinuses. Then there was the need to hold my
nose whenever possible, to keep that maddening *trickle* from causing me
to itch and sneeze. I don't miss any of that!

When I got here, almost all my allergies disappeared. And now that I've
been here nearly 20 years, I'm pleasantly surprised by how few new allergies
I've picked up. Part of the reason, I think, is that because of the climate,
plants grow all year round. Maybe not all the same plants, but there's a
lot of overlap. And even the plants that go dormant (or outright die) in
the winter have a much longer growing and pollinating season than plants
in MA have. As a result, I think they don't need to engage in such intensive
reproductive activities (ie, plant sex) because they have the better part
of a year to do so. In Massachusetts, if you don't reproduce within a short
time, you've lost your chance ("you" being some kind of foliage). So during
those periods of time, the air is saturated with pollen, to the misery of
all of us who react badly to it.

Snork.

That's pretty much the sound made by allergy sufferers during pollen season.

--
Joyce

The heck with top and bottom -- I want relationships with strangeness
and charm.

wrote in message
...
hopitus wrote:

Aren't allergies more consistent than that?

I dunno about consistency of allergies; mine are pretty much confined
to chronic rhinitis (stuffed
nasal passages, annoying but take no meds for; the meds raise bp) and
they come and go with
which way the ragweed or dust is blowing. For giggles....I left south
FL allergens, brief period here
with no symptoms till developing new allergies to local allergens.

I had a similar experience, but with a different ending, after moving
from Massachusetts (MA) to California. In MA, I had developed a lot of
pollen-related allergies over the years. The months of September and
October were passed in an antihistamine daze, exacerbated by the partial
deafness caused by blocked sinuses. Then there was the need to hold my
nose whenever possible, to keep that maddening *trickle* from causing me
to itch and sneeze. I don't miss any of that!

When I got here, almost all my allergies disappeared. And now that I've
been here nearly 20 years, I'm pleasantly surprised by how few new
allergies
I've picked up. Part of the reason, I think, is that because of the
climate,
plants grow all year round. Maybe not all the same plants, but there's a
lot of overlap. And even the plants that go dormant (or outright die) in
the winter have a much longer growing and pollinating season than plants
in MA have. As a result, I think they don't need to engage in such
intensive
reproductive activities (ie, plant sex) because they have the better part
of a year to do so. In Massachusetts, if you don't reproduce within a
short
time, you've lost your chance ("you" being some kind of foliage). So
during
those periods of time, the air is saturated with pollen, to the misery of
all of us who react badly to it.

I've lived in California all my life and have allergies all year round,
although it's definitely worse in the spring and fall. I think fall is a
little worse than spring.

Joy