If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#61
|
|||
|
|||
"Arjun Ray" wrote in message
... In , "bewtifulfreak" wrote: | "Arjun Ray" wrote in message | news | Animal abusers get no courtesy from me, sorry. | | I think you're very quick to judge someone as an animal abuser without | knowing all the facts If you're talking about Barbara Peale, Google is your friend: I wasn't, actually. | In certain cases, [top-posted material] is free-standing; the context | is the header (as in the support example). Then *delete* the message body instead of hanging it off the end. The basic idea is still the same: remove irrelevant material. What you still haven't provided a coherent argument for is what some people call "jeopardy style" (where the answer precedes the question). I did explain my reasoning, but you obviously disagree with it. Fair enough. | See, now you're just pointing out petty, pedantic grammar mistakes; No, I was wondering if you left something out in alluding to something I had posted. Fair enough. | Top-posting was unknown when most people used competent software. | | Complain to Bill Gates on that one; Pointless: Micro$oft supports and encourages top-posting for the obvious benefits to cover-your-ass corporate memoing. | I use what comes with my browser. Usenet is not an adjunct of the WWW. No, but I prefer to get my newsgroups along with my mail. I will explore the other options you've linked to, but most of the stand-alone newsreaders I've tried seemed far more complex than I wanted to bother with. Ann |
#62
|
|||
|
|||
In , "bewtifulfreak"
wrote: | "Arjun Ray" wrote in message | | If you're talking about Barbara Peale, Google is your friend: | | I wasn't, actually. Sorry, I assumed you were. I suppose I should add, then, that animal abusers aren't the only ones who don't get courtesy from me. | What you still haven't provided a coherent argument for is what some | people call "jeopardy style" (where the answer precedes the question). | | I did explain my reasoning, but you obviously disagree with it. Fair | enough. Have you read all the links at the allmyfaqs.com wiki? http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post It's telling that no one has added to the wiki anything in favor of TOFU (a term coined in the de.* hierarchy: "Text Oben, FullQuote Unten") || I use what comes with my browser. | | Usenet is not an adjunct of the WWW. | | No, but I prefer to get my newsgroups along with my mail. Mail isn't an adjunct of the WWW either, so I still don't see what a browser has to do with it. ;-) | I will explore the other options you've linked to, but most of the | stand-alone newsreaders I've tried seemed far more complex than I | wanted to bother with. I think you should have said "less familiar". OE's inteface is far from "simple"; in fact, it can be stupefyingly misleading (due, of course, to the fact that the designers and programmers hadn't the first clue about usenet). Defective software may explain, but does not excuse - much less justify - poor posting practices. And, unfortunately, most people make heavy weather of admitting gaffes (such, as in this context, having been led up the garden path by OE's posting interface.) |
#63
|
|||
|
|||
Bob is just a grouchy old man who thinks he knows everything and likes to
let us know that. He's pretty clueless and life is better when he's ignored. DeAnna wrote in message ... This man surely can't be a DVM. If he is, I am glad to live in America. Recommending leaving cats outdoors to benefit their immune system? Claiming to be a champion for the right to toss cats out of doors to be left at the mercy of the elements, in the name of a 'full life'..... LOL Sheesh. D. "Don Swenson" wrote in message ... On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 09:57:45 +0100, Bob Brenchley. wrote: On 29 Jul 2003 15:36:41 +1000, wrote: In article , Bob Brenchley. wrote: If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. Yeah, yeah, Bob. Can't you come up with a better line you little ******? Not only are you a ******, but you're a liar too. Oh wait, I forgot you're a DVM who is smarter than all of the other DVMs in the world. My bad. *********************************************** "Free-ranging cats in the United States have an average lifespan in the general population of only 3 to 5 years; indoor cats have an average lifespan of 12 years and frequently live longer than 20 years..." (Karen L. Overall, M.A., V.M.D., Ph.D., Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behavior; Department of Clinical Studies School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania) "The hazards of the outdoors-automobiles, dogs, rival cats, poisonous plants, infectious diseases, and fleas, to name but a few-are compelling reasons to keep cats exclusively indoors." (Dr. James Richards, Director, Cornell Feline Health Center, College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York) "Cats can be happily kept inside all the time" (Robert J. Holmes, BVM&S, PhD, MRCVS, FACVSc, Cat Behavior and Training Animal Behaviour Clinic, Malvern Vie 3 144, Australia) -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- |
#64
|
|||
|
|||
That's a failing of your "choice" of software. (Actually, Micro$oft
would turn around and accuse you of not "configuring it properly"). Go to Tools - Options - Read, and uncheck the box that says "Get ____ headers at a time". I have it set to 1000. But still there are times old headers and the messages are expired at the server level. Then it doesn't matter if *my* choice of newsreader is configured properly or not. | And I don't have problems with excessive spool file size to contain | the newsgroups, even though I don't expire the posts, and there are | posts dating back over a year. Bandwidth is an issue for servers, not your hard disk. Hello? I was TALKING about my server. My newsgroups. My expire settings. This is all server side, on my machine. Perhaps you missed that part. | Since I have to read ALL posts, in order to admin, Admin? Usenet newsgroups are not administered. Some may be moderated, but newsadmins (those who run servers) generally don't monitor specific newsgroups in any official capacity. One more time... MY newsgroups. (The "newsadmin" (those who run MY server) is me). Yes, they are 'administered'. I one of two admins, and I very strictly monitor all my groups for violations of our code of conduct. | it is MUCH simpler if I open the post and INSTANTLY see what that | person said, saving me scrolling and sorting, instead of trying to | figure out if a violation of our Code of Conduct was directly from | that poster, or was a snip cut and paste quote from a post before. If | you are that worried about post sizes, snip it all. But then again, | if the posts get mis-grouped somehow, it makes it hard to figure out | where they fit in. And my groups users range from OE newreader users | to Forte Agent, XNews, and Gravity users. Code of Conduct? "Misgrouped somehow"? "My groups"? Seriously, what *are* you talking about? *sigh* A Code of Conduct is a set of rules, applying to how posters conduct themselves, in our forums. Misgrouped, as in sometimes there is an error at the server (or perhaps client) level, which causes the post to appear in a thread by itself (sometimes changing the subject line causes this, sometimes if you post with the same subject that has previously been used, it will group with those posts instead of the later thread....). My groups as in the newsgroups I host on the server I own. D. |
#65
|
|||
|
|||
Thank you sir.
Perhaps I shall do that. D. |
#66
|
|||
|
|||
In , "DeAnna"
wrote: | Go to Tools - Options - Read, and uncheck the box that says | "Get ____ headers at a time". | | I have it set to 1000. A tip: this is a *non*-feature. The OE team misunderstood a feature they tried to copy from other newsreaders, where you can "sample" newsgroups - by looking at some number of recent headers - before deciding whether to subscribe. For subscribed newsgroups, all you really need in practice is a "catchup" option (which retrieves new overview summaries, as usual, *and* marks them read.) You should uncheck that box. It doesn't serve any constructive purpose for subscribed newsgroups. | Bandwidth is an issue for servers, not your hard disk. | | Hello? I was TALKING about my server. My newsgroups. My expire settings. | This is all server side, on my machine. Perhaps you missed that part. Look, this is very simple. Running an NNTP server program on a computer doesn't automatically make it part of usenet. If you're running such server software to support *private* newsgroups that no other server will carry, then those newgroups are not part of usenet. You can do what you like, no one cares. | One more time... MY newsgroups. (The "newsadmin" (those who run MY | server) is me). Yes, they are 'administered'. I one of two admins, | and I very strictly monitor all my groups for violations of our code | of conduct. So, what newsgroups are these? Do they appear on any *usenet* server? No? Then, like I said, no one cares. Your problems, such as you perceive them, are your own, and have absolutely no bearing on usenet netiquette, which is what we have been talking about here. Or, at least, I have. It's like this. No one cares if you're a complete boor at your own dinner table, but table manners are expected of you when you dine, say, at a restaurant. That is, the cutting edge of any notion of "decorum" applies in its public aspect, so that any discussion of table manners is really relevant only to contexts where your behavior could matter to others. What you like or permit or disallow at your own table in your own private context is magnificently irrelevant. | Code of Conduct? "Misgrouped somehow"? "My groups"? Seriously, what | *are* you talking about? | | *sigh* Obviously, you're very new to this. | A Code of Conduct is a set of rules, I know what it is. I was questioning the relevance. On *usenet*, there are no censors, no nannies. Moderated newsgroups operate on a different principle (articles are forwarded from the posting-host by mail to a moderator who reposts it if it meets the group's criteria for relevance or topicality.) If you were a moderator - for a newsgroup carried on usenet by virtue of a newgroup control message being honored - you would have known and used the term, so what you're talking about is clearly *not* usenet. | Misgrouped, as in sometimes there is an error at the server (or perhaps | client) level, which causes the post to appear in a thread by itself This is very confused. Threading is determined by the contents of the References header in an article, if one exists. RFC 1036, Sec. 2.2.5: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1036.html A server will carry the article in the newsgroups it recognizes among those listed in the Newsgroups header of the article. There is no *usenet* server software known which (a) arbitrarily rewrites Newgroups headers in articles (b) arbitrarily rewrites References headers in articles (c) arbitrarily rewrites Subject headers in articles There is no competent newsclient software that (a) fails to include a References header for followups (b) arbitrarily rewrites Subject headers in articles AFAIK, Outlook Express manages to get (a) right, but it *does* fail on (b). Specifically, if the Subject begins with a token consisting of up to four alphabetic characters and then a colon, that token will be removed from the Subject header in followups. Examples are Subjects that start with "OT:" (for "Off-Topic") or "Attn:". The "reason" for this is yet another non-featu OE interprets all such tokens as locale-specific alternates of the standard "" and thus "helpfully" replaces it with the poster's locale-specific variant. Other than this known infelicity, I don't know of any server or client "error" that you could be talking about. | (sometimes changing the subject line causes this, sometimes if you | post with the same subject that has previously been used, it will | group with those posts instead of the later thread....). What you *might* be talking about here is the user interface of some newsclient software that does strange things in sorting articles for display - for instance, automatically showing a new thread when the Subject header changes in a followup (rather than doing this only at user configuration option.) The obvious solution is to get a competent newsreader. But anyway, if you have the "authority" to arbitrarily rewrite headers in an attempt to fix things, then you're *not* talking about usenet. | My groups as in the newsgroups I host on the server I own. Like I said, no one cares about the rules for your private newsgroups. Nor do they serve as a standard by which usenet conventions ought to be judged. That would be just too outragesous a manifestation of the "Ugly American" syndrome that so many newbies these days seem to have. -- NETSCAPISM /net-'sca-,pi-z*m/ n (1995): habitual diversion of the mind to purely imaginative activity or entertainment as an escape from the realization that the Internet was built by and for someone else. -- Erik Naggum |
#67
|
|||
|
|||
A tip: this is a *non*-feature. The OE team misunderstood a feature
they tried to copy from other newsreaders, where you can "sample" newsgroups - by looking at some number of recent headers - before deciding whether to subscribe. For subscribed newsgroups, all you really need in practice is a "catchup" option (which retrieves new overview summaries, as usual, *and* marks them read.) Sorry, the catchup option marks the articles as read BEFORE downloading. The articles are then not downloaded unless the entire group is reset. You should uncheck that box. It doesn't serve any constructive purpose for subscribed newsgroups. I am not sure what purpose you think un-checking that box serves. Look, this is very simple. Running an NNTP server program on a computer doesn't automatically make it part of usenet. I did not say it was "part" of usenet. They are *PRIVATE* newsgroups, specific to a certain group of users, who share a common interest. If you're running such server software to support *private* newsgroups that no other server will carry, then those newgroups are not part of usenet. You can do what you like, no one cares. There are still the sanctimonious, self-righteous bottom posters who think they have the duty to preach their sermons... So, what newsgroups are these? Do they appear on any *usenet* server? No? Then, like I said, no one cares. Your problems, such as you perceive them, are your own, and have absolutely no bearing on usenet netiquette, which is what we have been talking about here. Or, at least, I have. "Posting netiquette" is posting netiquette. You still have users whether you run private groups exclusive to 300 individuals, or public feeds that anyone can subscribe to. Many readers do not care whether the newsgroup they post on is fed to another server or not, they still want it to operate the way they want it to, with everyone bottom posting, as they loosely lump any NNTP server as a "usenet" server, even though they aren't. I am thankful that the ones in my group are a very small segment of the population, although they are very vocal about criticizing other people. Perhaps they have nothing better to do. It's like this. No one cares if you're a complete boor at your own dinner table, but table manners are expected of you when you dine, say, at a restaurant. That is, the cutting edge of any notion of "decorum" applies in its public aspect, so that any discussion of table manners is really relevant only to contexts where your behavior could matter to others. What you like or permit or disallow at your own table in your own private context is magnificently irrelevant. That depends on if you have 300 guests at your dinner table. Then people DO care. Obviously, you're very new to this. Obviously not. | A Code of Conduct is a set of rules, I know what it is. I was questioning the relevance. On *usenet*, there are no censors, no nannies. Moderated newsgroups operate on a different principle (articles are forwarded from the posting-host by mail to a moderator who reposts it if it meets the group's criteria for relevance or topicality.) If you were a moderator - for a newsgroup carried on usenet by virtue of a newgroup control message being honored - you would have known and used the term, so what you're talking about is clearly *not* usenet. We don't have control groups. And again.. NO we are not usenet. We are a group of private newsgroups, run for a specific group. | Misgrouped, as in sometimes there is an error at the server (or perhaps | client) level, which causes the post to appear in a thread by itself Case in point, the group microsoft.public.games.zone.fighterace had a server glitch that was causing it to send mixed up headers with the posts. A subject and From would appear, and you open the post and see something entirely different, from someone else. It was a server side error, because it was experienced by many different people, using different newsreaders. Other than this known infelicity, I don't know of any server or client "error" that you could be talking about. What you *might* be talking about here is the user interface of some newsclient software that does strange things in sorting articles for display - for instance, automatically showing a new thread when the Subject header changes in a followup (rather than doing this only at user configuration option.) That would be the SECOND reference (at the client level) I referred to. I am glad you caught on. "Ugly American" syndrome that so many newbies these days seem to have. Ahh... that comment explains a lot about your self-righteous attitude. D. |
#68
|
|||
|
|||
In , "DeAnna"
wrote: | Sorry, the catchup option marks the articles as read BEFORE downloading. No, that's in "online" readers only (such as those which work with a newsrc file and don't maintain a local copy of the overview.) | The articles are then not downloaded unless the entire group is reset. No articles are downloaded unless the user asks for them. The XOVER verb retrieves only the headers listed in the server's overview.fmt database. Readers with offline capabilities maintain full copies for subscribed newsgroups (except, of course, for gaps due to articles having been expired in the newsspool.) | I am not sure what purpose you think un-checking that box serves. You complained about having to fetch multiple times. It's a problem of your own making. | Look, this is very simple. Running an NNTP server program on a computer | doesn't automatically make it part of usenet. | | I did not say it was "part" of usenet. Precisely the point here. Usenet discussions are all about *context*. The context was usenet netiquette. Your disquisition on the travails of "administering" a private server was irrelevant. | "Posting netiquette" is posting netiquette. You still have users whether | you run private groups exclusive to 300 individuals, or public feeds that | anyone can subscribe to. Whether usenet netiquette is even wanted in private arrangements is the private server's business. No one cares. | Many readers do not care whether the newsgroup they post on is fed to | another server or not, they still want it to operate the way they want it | to, You are confusing a user interface with how a system works. | with everyone bottom posting, as they loosely lump any NNTP server as | a "usenet" server, even though they aren't. Ignorance is not a defence, much less a justification. Mature newsreader software automatically subscribes to the newsgroups listed in a "LIST SUBSCRIPTIONS" transaction. That gives newcomers immediate, painless access to news.newusers.questions and other such groups with useful FAQ-type recurrent posts. If the software doesn't, then it needs to have been written cluefully enough to protect newbies from themselves. What we're seeing today is newbies "learning" about newsgroups from bozoware. You can call this "progress", I don't. | What you like or permit or disallow at your own table in your own | private context is magnificently irrelevant. | | That depends on if you have 300 guests at your dinner table. Then | people DO care. It doesn't matter if they do. The rules (or lack thereof) for your own table are yours. This discussion is about consensus in the absence of rules. You can inform yourself about that consensus, or you can pretend that it doesn't exist, or you can insist that you are exempt. | Obviously, you're very new to this. | | Obviously not. Obviously yes, since you thought rules for private newsgroups were "relevant" for usenet. || Misgrouped, as in sometimes there is an error at the server (or perhaps || client) level, which causes the post to appear in a thread by itself | | Case in point, the group microsoft.public.games.zone.fighterace had a | server glitch that was causing it to send mixed up headers with the | posts. A subject and From would appear, and you open the post and see | something entirely different, from someone else. It was a server side | error, An overview database out of synch, in the particular server, solved by a reindexing. Other servers carrying the newsgroup would not have been affected. If your server is prone to this problem, you need better server software. :-) [This particular synching problem can happen in the CNews distribution if the server is configured to honor Supersedes. Last I knew, the bug wasn't fixed because Supersedes are not honored much these days, due to systematic abuse by rogue cancellers.] | "Ugly American" syndrome that so many newbies these days seem to have. | | Ahh... that comment explains a lot about your self-righteous attitude. No, disappointment that people need to get defensive and struggle to dredge up excuses. the fact of the matter is that newbies started top posting only because that's what was easy in the Outlook Express that came preinstalled on their computer. It's hard to unlearn bad habits. Note that in this thread, you interleaved your remarks, for which I thank you. You snipped, and you put your remarks in context. Now consider this. What does interleaving look like when there is only one passage of quoted context? So-called "bottom posting" is just a special case of the *general* style. ;-) -- It's the things you know that just aint so. |
#69
|
|||
|
|||
That's the point. No one on *usenet* cares what the rules are or aren't
on your private server. Those rules are irrelevant to practices and usages on usenet. As I said before, we were discussing posting styles. I am referring to posting style across any NNTP or email type discussion list. You are the one who won't get off your "Usenet" high horse. (And for being such a sanctimonious expert on Usenet, you'd think you'd know enough to capitalize it.) I was waiting for the "oh but we're so MODERN now!" shtick. Have these self-congratulatory worthies read this: http://www.digital-web.com/tutorials..._1999-12.shtml Hmm... seems this guy is referring to EMAIL lists, not USENET? LOL. Not as much of a harpie as you are, I see? Actually, it's top posters who have ADD. They can't keep context even if they tried, and they don't care anyway. It shows. You must have very severe ADD if you cannot follow the logic here. People who top post general read the posts and often even DAYS after, need only to see the current posters thoughts in order to follow the conversation. It is much more typical of ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) to forget what you just read and be forced to re-read it to comprehend. | Tell me, when you talk with someone, do you first repeat what they | had to say, while making cute little "quote" signs with your fingers, No, we talk about things one at a time. A conversation is not a formal debates where everyone gets a chance to deliver a monologue. Perhaps YOUR conversations aren't. If you have tact and manners, you allow other people their say before interrupting them, hence a conversation is essentially people stating their opinion, which would be monologue (as long as some boor doesn't butt in). Electronic conversation allows simultaneity of topics, and interleaving is what *allows* such parallelism with minimal to nonexistent confusion. It's all about context. ANY conversation can allow simultaneity of topics. Perhaps you should try conversing with folks who have the intelligence to carry on a multi-tiered conversation. Or perhaps it is that ADD showing symptoms again, and you must carry on a one-track discussion with a one-track mind? I'm in no great rush to say what I want to say. If it isn't in context, I won't say anything at all. You seem to have a lot to say, which isn't in context. Your original attack on a poster in a cat forum was out of context, for the purpose of insulting her choice of posting styles. You sound as if you have an exaggerated sense of the importance of what YOU want to say. The "Me first! Me! Me!! Me!!!" urge is typical. It has nothing to do with importance. I prefer to read when OTHERS top post. I want to see what THAT post says, NOT a series of regurgitations from the entire thread which I already read. Oh, but it is, your attempts to drop context notwithstanding. I see your exaggerated sense of self importance leads you to believe that you should control the entire gist of a discussion. My point is on POST STYLES. Not explicitly Usenet posting style, but email discussion lists, and private forums, which all operate on very similar premises. Don't believe me? Read the article at the link YOU provided in an attempt to support your lame POV. | It is about the redundancy of bottom posting, with quotage and snippage. Huh!? *Not* snipping is *not* redundant? Leaving a mishmash of hundreds of mangled lines hanging off the end of a post is *not* redundant? The point being, you don't have to SCROLL the mismash IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, in order to get to the 'meat' of the post. You can read down if you NEED to, but you aren't forced to, by virtue of having to "find" the new content of the current post. If you're arguing that there should be no quoting *at all*, then by all means put that belief into practice. Go to Tools - Options - Send, and uncheck the box that says "Include message in reply". I don't argue that either. I just think people should be free to post as they like. I have to read through patchwork snip, chop, copy and paste bottom-posting, interleaved conversations. Why do the bottom posters always whine about reading top posts? If you don't like it KMA. If you think usenet is about serial monologues, then you're definitely in the wrong place. You should be on an IRC channel, where you can toss your two cents into the amorphous stream scrolling by. No, because Usenet is structured in threads. IRC is not structured, with each message inserted upon its order of being received at the server. Why do you think messages are "grouped" by threads? I didn't say it did. Can you read? Do you understand the word "if"? It reeks of insinuation. So how did it even affect you, unless you were pointing your client at Microsoft's server? Any other server carrying the newsgroup would not have had the problem. Sorry to tell you, but it affected everyone, many who subscribed through their ISP servers. In fact, I assumed that it probably *didn't* affect you; that you were just giving an example of a "server error". Which is why I pointed out that the example was a problem in indexing on a particular server, not a problem with the newsgroup at large (all over usenet). However, since this was in the context of what you described you had to watch for on your private server, there was the *possibility* that you had had the problem yourself. Hence my "if". Yes it *did* affect me, as a subscriber. And not it was not something that happened on my server. I was merely making a point that sometimes threads get garbled, either by the client, or at the server level, and yes, even on Usenet. | There you go again, judging someone's preference as a "bad habit". It's a bad habit. That they might "prefer" it is irrelevant. Well, I will take my bad habit of posting in an efficient manner over your bad habit of posting in an archaic style, and your bad manners, any day. Why don't you just say that you can't be bothered to *edit* your posts? What is the point? To cost me more time in composing, and cost the reader more time in reading? Gee, that is intelligent! Not! All these lame excuses, when your essential point was... So what is your lame excuse? "Well this is the way the people who formed Usenet did it way back when......" You know, cavemen at their meat raw, before fire, but that doesn't mean it is the best way to enjoy your steak. | And it was a huge PITA, and took three times as long as simply typing | what I had to say, and hitting send, ...this. Such a rush to get in what YOU wanted to say, the hell with everything else. Actually, I prefer top-posting because it is faster to READ and COMPREHEND, for those of us who don't have ADD and have already read and digested the previous contents of the thread. | but as a matter of being considerate, Lost on you, apparently. You wouldn't know the definition of considerate if it nipped you in the arse. | as I said, when in Rome.... Don't bother, really. As I said, in my second reply to you -sorry, in the throes of your ADD, that hasn't been quoted since the post, so allow me to regurgitate it for you: Killfile away. I am thankful of one thing, there are no sanctimonious, self-righteous boors such as you that visit my groups. Even my ardent bottom posters have manners. D. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Cat licking patio | The Mermaid | Cat health & behaviour | 32 | September 12th 04 06:09 AM |
Screened patio | John Biltz | Cat anecdotes | 8 | March 3rd 04 06:34 AM |
Best wet food for keeping cystitis away? | Brian or Sharon Beuchaw | Cat health & behaviour | 550 | October 10th 03 08:53 PM |