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When do you "call it a day"?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 20th 09, 10:50 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Eddy[_2_]
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Posts: 72
Default When do you "call it a day"?

I would like to know various people's views on when one should "call it
a day" when a beloved pet has a very serious illness.

If increasing part of the medication to maximum level will give the
animal good quality of life for a large part of the day though in the
end the side-effects of that large increase in medication will cause
additional complications, do you give the animal that extra good-quality
time and wait until the additional complications set in?

Do you say that it is good that increasing the medication has largely
removed the animal's suffering but while the animal is now in this good
window you should put him to sleep, rather than wait for the next
down-turn?

Or do you say that in spite of the increased medication the animal
remains below par, below normal health, and should therefore be relieved
of life without more ado?

Or what?

We are having a tough time here. One thing is certain. This fine young
cat could have been put to sleep a month ago when it was found he had
"very serious congestive heart failure" but since then, because of the
medication, and increases in his medication, he has enjoyed some very
happy days frolicking around in the sunshine, devouring good food, and
luxuriating in front of the fire.

Eddy.

  #2  
Old April 20th 09, 12:53 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
cindys
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Posts: 592
Default When do you "call it a day"?

On Apr 20, 5:50*am, Eddy
wrote:
I would like to know various people's views on when one should "call it
a day" when a beloved pet has a very serious illness.

If increasing part of the medication to maximum level will give the
animal good quality of life for a large part of the day though in the
end the side-effects of that large increase in medication will cause
additional complications, do you give the animal that extra good-quality
time and wait until the additional complications set in?

Do you say that it is good that increasing the medication has largely
removed the animal's suffering but while the animal is now in this good
window you should put him to sleep, rather than wait for the next
down-turn?

Or do you say that in spite of the increased medication the animal
remains below par, below normal health, and should therefore be relieved
of life without more ado?

Or what?

We are having a tough time here. *One thing is certain. *This fine young
cat could have been put to sleep a month ago when it was found he had
"very serious congestive heart failure" but since then, because of the
medication, and increases in his medication, he has enjoyed some very
happy days frolicking around in the sunshine, devouring good food, and
luxuriating in front of the fire.

---------------
In my opinion, you make your decision on the basis of the cat's
quality of life. If medications are keeping him alive but he's
spending his whole day lying in the corner, it's time to call it a
day. OTOH, if the medications are keeping him alive, but he's spending
his day frolicking, it's too soon to call it a day. Even if you know
you may have a downturn in a week or a month. You can always call it a
day when you see the downturn.

I have a cat with very severe heart disease (although he has not
experienced the repeated episodes of fluid-buildup-induced respiratory
distress followed by periods of dehydration that you have described in
your cat). My cat ended up in the animal emergency room on December
30, 2007. His prognosis was grim. He was in respiratory distress,
every chamber of his heart was enlarged, he had leaky valves, blood
clots just asking to form. They drained his chest, prescribed some
medication and gave him "a few months at most." Our regular vet
estimated his remaining lifespan to be "maybe another month."

It's now been nearly a year and a half, and we still have the cat, and
he is still enjoying a really good quality of life, eating well
(thanks to Pepcid), going up and down the stairs, jumping onto (low)
tables, sleeping in my son's bed, etc. When the time comes, we won't
hesitate to call it a day, but that day will come only once. In the
meantime, the cat is happy, and we're appreciating every day we have
him. Every living creature is going to get sick and die someday. You
don't want to hasten that day but neither do you want to prolong the
suffering when it comes. I would say it is time to call it a day if
and when: Your cat is spending much of his day lying in a corner. He
doesn't want to eat (and you're already tried giving him Pepcid - ask
your vet for the proper dose for a cat, and don't use the extra
strength). He stops grooming. He stops using the litter box. He hides.
He's wobbly on his feet. These are all signs that he's had enough. But
if he's happy and frolicking, it's too soon. Take your cue from him.

(BTW, I saw that you wrote in another thread that you're giving your
cat aspirin - I would assume to prevent clots. You might want to think
about using Plavix (clopidogrel) instead. Our cat is taking four or
five different meds for his heart, but I believe it's the Lasix
(furosemide) and the clopidogrel that are responsible for keeping him
alive. The potential for blood clots is huge for cats with heart
disease. The medication is expensive in the USA because we only have
the brand-name available to us, but you can get it generic from a
Canadian pharmacy. I used Canada Pharmacy online. It cost me around
$80 for 100 pills. The cat takes only 1/4 pill per day, so 100 pills
are enough to last for a year and a half. In the USA, it costs $135
for 30 pills at CVS or Rite Aid.)
Good luck to you and your kitty.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

  #3  
Old April 20th 09, 01:24 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Stan Brown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 211
Default When do you "call it a day"?

Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:50:34 +0100 from Eddy
:
I would like to know various people's views on when one should "call it
a day" when a beloved pet has a very serious illness.


This is a terribly hard choice. Coincidentally, a friend and I were
talking about it last night.

Part of it depends on finances. I don't have the financial resources
to spend thousands of dollars on hip replacements or chemotherapy, so
those are not an option for me though they are for some.

My own view is that it's a matter of the quality of the animal's
life. If I can give him a good life now without bankrupting myself,
that's what I'll do.

In your hypothetical the medicine that helps a cat now kes things
worse later than if the medicine had not been given. That doesn't
seem terribly likely for me, but if we assume it for the sake of
argument then I would respond that cats, blessedly, don't know about
the future so if their present is good then they are happy. And even
if what we know *now* is that there's going to be trouble down the
road, by the time that day arrives there may be new treatments.

For me, then, the time for euthanasia is when nothing that can be
done now (within my resources) will make the cat's life good enough
now.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...
  #4  
Old April 20th 09, 03:28 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Eddy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default When do you "call it a day"?

Stan Brown wrote:

Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:50:34 +0100 from Eddy
:
I would like to know various people's views on when one should "call it
a day" when a beloved pet has a very serious illness.


This is a terribly hard choice. Coincidentally, a friend and I were
talking about it last night.

Part of it depends on finances. I don't have the financial resources
to spend thousands of dollars on hip replacements or chemotherapy, so
those are not an option for me though they are for some.

My own view is that it's a matter of the quality of the animal's
life. If I can give him a good life now without bankrupting myself,
that's what I'll do.

In your hypothetical the medicine that helps a cat now kes things
worse later than if the medicine had not been given. That doesn't
seem terribly likely for me, but if we assume it for the sake of
argument then I would respond that cats, blessedly, don't know about
the future so if their present is good then they are happy. And even
if what we know *now* is that there's going to be trouble down the
road, by the time that day arrives there may be new treatments.

For me, then, the time for euthanasia is when nothing that can be
done now (within my resources) will make the cat's life good enough
now.


Stan, thanks very much for this very sound and considered reply. It's a
help to us.

Eddy.

  #5  
Old April 20th 09, 03:33 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Eddy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default When do you "call it a day"?

cindys wrote:

On Apr 20, 5:50 am, Eddy
wrote:
---------------
In my opinion, you make your decision on the basis of the cat's
quality of life. If medications are keeping him alive but he's
spending his whole day lying in the corner, it's time to call it a
day. OTOH, if the medications are keeping him alive, but he's spending
his day frolicking, it's too soon to call it a day. Even if you know
you may have a downturn in a week or a month. You can always call it a
day when you see the downturn.

I have a cat with very severe heart disease (although he has not
experienced the repeated episodes of fluid-buildup-induced respiratory
distress followed by periods of dehydration that you have described in
your cat). My cat ended up in the animal emergency room on December
30, 2007. His prognosis was grim. He was in respiratory distress,
every chamber of his heart was enlarged, he had leaky valves, blood
clots just asking to form. They drained his chest, prescribed some
medication and gave him "a few months at most." Our regular vet
estimated his remaining lifespan to be "maybe another month."

It's now been nearly a year and a half, and we still have the cat, and
he is still enjoying a really good quality of life, eating well
(thanks to Pepcid), going up and down the stairs, jumping onto (low)
tables, sleeping in my son's bed, etc. When the time comes, we won't
hesitate to call it a day, but that day will come only once. In the
meantime, the cat is happy, and we're appreciating every day we have
him. Every living creature is going to get sick and die someday. You
don't want to hasten that day but neither do you want to prolong the
suffering when it comes. I would say it is time to call it a day if
and when: Your cat is spending much of his day lying in a corner. He
doesn't want to eat (and you're already tried giving him Pepcid - ask
your vet for the proper dose for a cat, and don't use the extra
strength). He stops grooming. He stops using the litter box. He hides.
He's wobbly on his feet. These are all signs that he's had enough. But
if he's happy and frolicking, it's too soon. Take your cue from him.

(BTW, I saw that you wrote in another thread that you're giving your
cat aspirin - I would assume to prevent clots. You might want to think
about using Plavix (clopidogrel) instead. Our cat is taking four or
five different meds for his heart, but I believe it's the Lasix
(furosemide) and the clopidogrel that are responsible for keeping him
alive. The potential for blood clots is huge for cats with heart
disease. The medication is expensive in the USA because we only have
the brand-name available to us, but you can get it generic from a
Canadian pharmacy. I used Canada Pharmacy online. It cost me around
$80 for 100 pills. The cat takes only 1/4 pill per day, so 100 pills
are enough to last for a year and a half. In the USA, it costs $135
for 30 pills at CVS or Rite Aid.)
Good luck to you and your kitty.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Cindy, it is great to receive direct personal advice from someone else
with a cat with much the same serious conditions as ours. Thanks so
much. I'm printing out your (and Stan's) advice to keep by us during
these difficult up-and-down days.

Many thanks.

Eddy.

  #6  
Old April 20th 09, 04:58 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 126
Default When do you "call it a day"?

On Apr 20, 5:50*am, Eddy
wrote:

We are having a tough time here. *One thing is certain. *This fine young
cat could have been put to sleep a month ago when it was found he had
"very serious congestive heart failure" but since then, because of the
medication, and increases in his medication, he has enjoyed some very
happy days frolicking around in the sunshine, devouring good food, and
luxuriating in front of the fire.


If the cat is happy, free of pain and interacting with you happily and
by choice, keep at it.

If the financial situation is sustainable, keep at it. This may seem
brutal that cost should be a factor, but as it happens, quality-of-
life goes both ways. We kept a golden retriever who had a normal,
happy life on $3 worth of pills per day, even heavily discounted, and
no life on any smaller dosage. Between diet and pills, his maintenance
cost was nearly $6/day entirely appart from vet visits and liver
monitoring. But for the last 6 years of his life (he died at 14 full,
happy years of a stroke 4 weeks ago), he was happy, up until the few
hours before he died. An easy choice, for us. But some families cannot
handle a $2500 annual expense.

But if the condition is chronic, and the animal is unhappy, listless,
might be in pain and does not interact happily, for its sake and
yours, let it end.

Much as others have offered.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

  #7  
Old April 20th 09, 06:03 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
cybercat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,212
Default When do you "call it a day"?


"Eddy" wrote in message
...
I would like to know various people's views on when one should "call it
a day" when a beloved pet has a very serious illness.


When you know the animal is suffering and there is no chance of them getting
better. And remember that they are very good at hiding it.


  #8  
Old April 20th 09, 07:01 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
cindys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 592
Default When do you "call it a day"?

On Apr 20, 10:33*am, Eddy
wrote:
cindys wrote:
On Apr 20, 5:50 am, Eddy
wrote:
---------------
In my opinion, you make your decision on the basis of the cat's
quality of life. If medications are keeping him alive but he's
spending his whole day lying in the corner, it's time to call it a
day. OTOH, if the medications are keeping him alive, but he's spending
his day frolicking, it's too soon to call it a day. Even if you know
you may have a downturn in a week or a month. You can always call it a
day when you see the downturn.


I have a cat with very severe heart disease (although he has not
experienced the repeated episodes of fluid-buildup-induced respiratory
distress followed by periods of dehydration that you have described in
your cat). My cat ended up in the animal emergency room on December
30, 2007. His prognosis was grim. He was in respiratory distress,
every chamber of his heart was enlarged, he had leaky valves, blood
clots just asking to form. They drained his chest, prescribed some
medication and gave him "a few months at most." Our regular vet
estimated his remaining lifespan to be "maybe another month."


It's now been nearly a year and a half, and we still have the cat, and
he is still enjoying a really good quality of life, eating well
(thanks to Pepcid), going up and down the stairs, jumping onto (low)
tables, sleeping in my son's bed, etc. When the time comes, we won't
hesitate to call it a day, but that day will come only once. In the
meantime, the cat is happy, and we're appreciating every day we have
him. Every living creature is going to get sick and die someday. You
don't want to hasten that day but neither do you want to prolong the
suffering when it comes. I would say it is time to call it a day if
and when: Your cat is spending much of his day lying in a corner. He
doesn't want to eat (and you're already tried giving him Pepcid - ask
your vet for the proper dose for a cat, and don't use the extra
strength). He stops grooming. He stops using the litter box. He hides.
He's wobbly on his feet. These are all signs that he's had enough. But
if he's happy and frolicking, it's too soon. Take your cue from him.


(BTW, I saw that you wrote in another thread that you're giving your
cat aspirin - I would assume to prevent clots. You might want to think
about using Plavix (clopidogrel) instead. Our cat is taking four or
five different meds for his heart, but I believe it's the Lasix
(furosemide) and the clopidogrel that are responsible for keeping him
alive. The potential for blood clots is huge for cats with heart
disease. The medication is expensive in the USA because we only have
the brand-name available to us, but you can get it generic from a
Canadian pharmacy. I used Canada Pharmacy online. It cost me around
$80 for 100 pills. The cat takes only 1/4 pill per day, so 100 pills
are enough to last for a year and a half. In the USA, it costs $135
for 30 pills at CVS or Rite Aid.)
Good luck to you and your kitty.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.


Cindy, it is great to receive direct personal advice from someone else
with a cat with much the same serious conditions as ours. *Thanks so
much. *I'm printing out your (and Stan's) advice to keep by us during
these difficult up-and-down days.

Many thanks.

----------
I wish you all the best. And when the sad time comes, please remember
that your cat is not thinking "I can't believe he's doing this to me.
I had a lot of loose ends to clear up. I could have been around
another two weeks!" Cats live for the here and now. I was reading
somewhere that animals have only one bad day their entire lives
(obviously, this isn't exactly true, but I think you get the point).
When you need to euthanize a beloved animal, it's hard not to feel
that you have somehow betrayed your friend because no matter when you
do it, it's normal to feel self-doubt. In your mind, you will feel
that you either did it too soon or that you waited too long. Just
remember: In the end, this really is all about the person because the
kitty really doesn't know the difference. So, as long as your kitty is
happy and frolicking, enjoy each other. And when the time does come to
call it a day, try not to judge yourself too harshly.
I wish you many more happy days with your kitty.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

  #9  
Old April 20th 09, 09:13 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Eddy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default When do you "call it a day"?

cindys wrote:
----------
I wish you all the best. And when the sad time comes, please remember
that your cat is not thinking "I can't believe he's doing this to me.
I had a lot of loose ends to clear up. I could have been around
another two weeks!" Cats live for the here and now. I was reading
somewhere that animals have only one bad day their entire lives
(obviously, this isn't exactly true, but I think you get the point).
When you need to euthanize a beloved animal, it's hard not to feel
that you have somehow betrayed your friend because no matter when you
do it, it's normal to feel self-doubt. In your mind, you will feel
that you either did it too soon or that you waited too long. Just
remember: In the end, this really is all about the person because the
kitty really doesn't know the difference. So, as long as your kitty is
happy and frolicking, enjoy each other. And when the time does come to
call it a day, try not to judge yourself too harshly.
I wish you many more happy days with your kitty.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.


Cindy, VERY helpful and sound counsel. Thank you so much. We shall
print this out too and keep it in front of us.

(He's had another fantastic day in today's wonderful warm weather and is
currently sleeping with reasonably shallow breathing. Spoke to the vet
and the double dose of furosemide we have been giving him daily since
Saturday is going to be replaced by a daily dose of 20mgs furosemide and
20mgs of some other diuretic which won't drain him of potassium. Thanks
to PhilP for bringing up the potassium factor.)

Eddy.

  #10  
Old April 20th 09, 09:25 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Eddy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default When do you "call it a day"?

cybercat wrote:
When you know the animal is suffering and there is no chance of them getting
better. And remember that they are very good at hiding it.


Thanks, Cybercat. Yes, I think the operative words here are "no
chance". Our vet has explained that there is already no chance of our
cat getting better in the sense of the source of his problem improving.
So the question becomes is there still a chance of any drug or
combination of drugs keeping him going - and keep him going HAPPILY.

You're right about cats being good at "hiding" their illness. We have
found in recent weeks that we have had to really penetrate beneath the
lovely exterior, the lovely fur coat, and try and detect those lungs and
the degree of work they are having to do. It was only by doing this
that we have managed to save him thus far. But somehow cats don't draw
your attention to such difficulties. You really have to focus on them,
don't you.

Eddy.

 




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