Harriet is back in the hospital

On Mon 22 Aug 2005 08:40:05p, Elizabeth Blake wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
nk.net):

Soon after we got back to work, Harriet went in the litter box.
She passed some very liquid stool, which was expected since she
had enemas. I'm sure it felt better than trying to push out the
big, hard feces.

I'm glad she is in good spirits tonight. I'm sure she feels so much
better after the enemas. I saw your post about the canned food and
that is a great plan. And even if she starts shunning the canned
food you can try crushing up a few pieces of the dry into a powder
and sprinkling it over the canned food to try to entice her to keep
eating it. This subject is so serious to me after trying to help
Marley, and not to scare you, but the enemas can start to become
almost "addictive" if she can't seem to keep everything moving.
It's a viscous circle.

--
Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

in article , Elizabeth
Blake at wrote on 8/22/05 7:40 PM:


"Cheryl" wrote in message
...

I'm so sorry she's doing poorly again. Propulsid is the drug I
emailed you about, Cisapride is the generic name. My cat was on
that and the vet had told me it was taken off the market in the US
for humans, but the heart problems were never shown with cats. He
kept a supply of it for cats so it must be proven to help! I wonder
since the vet told you this would have been past treatment if you
ask if he can get some? They might make you wave any liability. I'd
sure ask.

It sure sounds like the constipation is causing the problems that
are causing the constipation, if that makes sense. I'm so sorry. :
(

--
Cheryl

That's what my vet said, too. He said they have never seen any problems
with the drug in cats.

Soon after we got back to work, Harriet went in the litter box. She passed
some very liquid stool, which was expected since she had enemas. I'm sure
it felt better than trying to push out the big, hard feces.

Harriet seemed extra sweet when she got back. She was rubbing around my
ankles in my office and butting heads with anyone who offered their forehead
to her. She chased a wadded up piece of paper around for awhile and seemed
very content. I just hope that she can stay clear with the diet +
Lactulose.

--
Liz


I wonder if the hills wet w/d or i/d would help. It is very high fiber and
is suppposed to help both with constipation or diarrhea. It sure has helped
Pearl's diarrhea. I mean like within two days. The w/d comes in two flavors.
The "with chicken" seems more appealing. More juice.

On Mon 22 Aug 2005 08:47:12p, Phil P. wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
(news
If she's been constipated for more than a few days, the feces
may be too dry and hard to eliminate. Sometimes, manual
extraction (under anesthesia) is the only way to get the cat
back on track. Once the dry, hardened feces are removed, you
should be able to manage her with only dietary support and
possibly ranitidine and lactulose.

This is merely a theory since obviously I'm not qualified to make
anything more than a guess. Since Liz keeps saying that the stools
are very large, I wonder if there's a reason why she has so much
waste? Not absorbing food during digestion and most of it turns to
waste? Or is it more likely just because the bowels aren't moving
as often as they should, ie, 2x instead of 1x per day, and it just
builds up? I've read a few articles about digestion problems
(diarrhea/constipation) in cats and one factor with constipation in
some cases other than hard and dry, seems to be very very large.
What are the things that lead to large stools (not just frequent
stools, not just dry, hard stools) - eating too much? eating too
much, too quickly? malabsorption?

--
Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

"Elizabeth Blake" wrote in message
oups.com...

Two weeks later, she was still having problems. On Saturday she was
able to poop, but she did it on a rug and in her bed!

Liz, try a different litterbox and litter and change the location of the
box. Part of the problem might be *voluntary* fecal retention. She may be
voluntarily holding it in and finally pooped in other places because she may
be associating painful defecation with the litterbox.

Constipation, regardless of cause, tends to be self-*perpetuating because
the large, dry, hard stools in the rectum are painful or difficult to
evacuate- which can lead to continued voluntary fecal retention and
eventually obstipation. The longer stools remain in the rectum the drier
and harder they become and the more difficult they are to evacuate when she
finally tries.

Phil

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...

I'm glad she is in good spirits tonight. I'm sure she feels so much
better after the enemas. I saw your post about the canned food and
that is a great plan. And even if she starts shunning the canned
food you can try crushing up a few pieces of the dry into a powder
and sprinkling it over the canned food to try to entice her to keep
eating it. This subject is so serious to me after trying to help
Marley, and not to scare you, but the enemas can start to become
almost "addictive" if she can't seem to keep everything moving.
It's a viscous circle.

--
Cheryl

Even before the constipation showed up again this year, I was sprinkling a
little freeze dried chicken on her wet food. Of course she would just
lick/eat the very top layer that had the chicken and leave the rest. Today
after she initially began eating her wet food (she didn't really have time
to eat her breakfast this morning) and left it, I put a little of the
chicken on it and she went back to the bowl. I crush it to a fine powder.
She's addicted to the freeze dried chicken, but now I'm afraid to give it to
her.

--
Liz

"Karen" wrote in message
...
I wonder if the hills wet w/d or i/d would help. It is very high fiber and
is suppposed to help both with constipation or diarrhea. It sure has
helped
Pearl's diarrhea. I mean like within two days. The w/d comes in two
flavors.
The "with chicken" seems more appealing. More juice.

Both vets that have seen Harriet this month (at the same practice) didn't
recommend high fiber food. I think they said that it might cause her stools
to become too big again. The Lactulose does have some kind of fiber in it.

--
Liz

"Phil P." wrote in message
news

Sometimes colonic motility decreases due to smooth muscle deterioration
caused by chronic overdistention.

The vet we saw today did mention this.

Has your vet run any blood tests? Hypokalemia and/or hypocalcemia can
adversely affect colonic smooth muscle function.

They ran blood tests when she was brought in the first time, on the 4th.
They said the results were all normal. She also had x-rays (they thought
maybe at one time she might have broken/fractured something) and those were
also normal.

Speak to your vet about ranitidine (Xantac) dosed at 1 to 3.5mg/kg every
12
to 24 hours. Ranitidine is in the H2 receptor antagonist drug class- and
stimulates colonic motility through inhibition of synaptic
acetylcholinestierase. Cimetidine (Tagamet) and famotidine (Pepcid) are
in
the same drug class but they don't have the same effect in cats, so you
can't use either as a substitute for ranitidine (been there tried that-
didn't work). I've had pretty good luck with a regimen of lactulose and
ranitidine. Ranitidine doesn't work in all constipated cats- but it works
in
enough cats to justify trying it.

Also, speak to your vet about pediatric rectal suppositories such as
Colace
or glycerine. Both are available in preloaded pediatric rectal syringes.
Fleet also makes a *plain pediatric glycerin* preparation. Please be
*very* careful not to confuse Fleet pediatric glycerin preparations with
regular Fleet enemas.

Please *DO NOT EVER* use sodium phosphate retention enemas such as Fleet
enemas in cats- they can cause *fatal* electrolyte imbalances in cats.
Similarly, *never* use mineral oil orally in cats because of the danger of
fatal aspiration pneumonia due the lack of taste. Mineral oil should only
be used *rectally* as lubricant laxative.

I've never given her any type of medication without seeing a vet first. I
will ask about the Xantac and baby suppositories.

If your vet recommends fiber, please make sure Harriet is *well* hydrated
to
avoid impaction of the fiber in the colon.

They didn't recommend a high fiber food, because they said it might cause
her stools to become too big and block her again. Harriet does drink a lot
of water. We have a Drinkwell fountain at work, and she comes into my
office several times a day and has a nice looooooong drink.


If she's been constipated for more than a few days, the feces may be too
dry
and hard to eliminate. Sometimes, manual extraction (under anesthesia) is
the only way to get the cat back on track. Once the dry, hardened feces
are
removed, you should be able to manage her with only dietary support and
possibly ranitidine and lactulose.

When I brought her in this morning, the vet said that her entire colon was
blocked but that it didn't feel too hard. He said that the diameter was
probably making it hard for her to eliminate them, not that they were too
hard. I do know that when she went outside the box they did seem firm to
me. Today she said that they got everything out, and she did pass liquid
stool after I brought her back to work.

Get her blood checked. ;-)

Best of luck,

Phil

I'll try to find out what blood tests they did run two weeks ago.

--
Liz

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...

This is merely a theory since obviously I'm not qualified to make
anything more than a guess. Since Liz keeps saying that the stools
are very large, I wonder if there's a reason why she has so much
waste? Not absorbing food during digestion and most of it turns to
waste? Or is it more likely just because the bowels aren't moving
as often as they should, ie, 2x instead of 1x per day, and it just
builds up? I've read a few articles about digestion problems
(diarrhea/constipation) in cats and one factor with constipation in
some cases other than hard and dry, seems to be very very large.
What are the things that lead to large stools (not just frequent
stools, not just dry, hard stools) - eating too much? eating too
much, too quickly? malabsorption?

--
Cheryl

The vet said that if the feces start accumulating and she can't pass it, and
more feces come along they end up pushing forward and squashing together.
That increases the diameter, making it that much harder to pass. If she
can't go and more & more feces build up, the colon's (and feces) diameter
will enlarge making it that much harder to pass. They recommended the low
residue food, which is supposed to decrease the amount of feces she
produces, since her body can use more of the food and makes less waste.
Less feces produced should hopefully mean it won't start getting backed up
and compacted.

She never really seemed to have a problem going to the bathroom before all
this started. She used the box on a regular basis. Since there are two
cats & 4 boxes, it wasn't really possible to tell who did what. Her
favorite box is outside my office, so I could often tell what she did if I
caught her in the act.

--
Liz

"Phil P." wrote in message
...

Liz, try a different litterbox and litter and change the location of the
box. Part of the problem might be *voluntary* fecal retention. She may
be
voluntarily holding it in and finally pooped in other places because she
may
be associating painful defecation with the litterbox.

Constipation, regardless of cause, tends to be self-*perpetuating because
the large, dry, hard stools in the rectum are painful or difficult to
evacuate- which can lead to continued voluntary fecal retention and
eventually obstipation. The longer stools remain in the rectum the drier
and harder they become and the more difficult they are to evacuate when
she
finally tries.

Phil

The two cats have 4 boxes. They all have clay clumping litter in them. Up
until recently, their least favorite box had some awful litter my boss
bought. I recently dumpd that, cleaned the box and put in a different awful
litter (clumps fall apart very easily) and they actually seem to like it.
They've used that box a lot since I switched it.

I have two big bags of WBCL at work that I bought for my cats, but I think
I'll open one and set up one of their boxes with it. Two of the boxes
change location as things gets busy/crowded but Harriet's favorite box has
always been outside my office door. Even when there was a different box in
the same location she preferred that over the others.

Before the first trip to the vet, she would sometimes get in the box and try
to go. When she couldn't, she would get out and go on the rug and leave one
turd. Then she would go back to her favorite box and finish up there.
Since she really likes that box in that location, should I just leave it and
move the others around? I even took one of the boxes upstairs into the
actual store, but she doesn't like going there. I know she knows it's
there, because I saw her checking it out.

--
Liz

"Elizabeth Blake" wrote in message
k.net...

I've never given her any type of medication without seeing a vet first. I
will ask about the Xantac and baby suppositories.

Have you tried (cow's) milk? "Too much" milk gives most cats diarrhea--
that's just the effect you want in a constipated cat.