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#1
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Which rights for which animals? (was: problem with this newsgroup)
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:34:46 -0500, "LarryLook" wrote:
The problem with this newsgroup is the following. The anti's here are under the assumptions: 1. That vegetarians don't think modern lifestyle kills anything. Some of us don't believe you're honestly too stupid to understand that you contribute to most of the same wildlife deaths that everyone else does. Some of us believe deep down you are actually aware of it, meaning that we think you lie to everyone else in your attempts to promote veg*nism, and possibly even lie to yourselves in order to reduce the discomfort of your cognitive dissonance which results from it. That's crazy. You are the ones who give the impression that you're too stupid to understand, so if anyone has that impression it is YOUR fault. As I pointed out above, some of us believe you are really more dishonest than you are stupid, though maybe not by much. I must kill and occassional ant driving to work. I admit it. So there. · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does. What they try to avoid are products which provide life (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have to avoid the following items containing animal by-products in order to be successful: Tires, Paper, Upholstery, Floor waxes, Glass, Water Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer, Antifreeze, Ceramics, Insecticides, Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic, Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen, Heparin, Insulin, Solvents, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides, Gelatin Capsules, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products, Plywood, Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane Wrap and Tape, Abrasives, Steel Ball Bearings 2. The anti's don't think we vegetarians care about numbers. But clearly the death of one animal is better than the death of 1000. It's not a hard concept. Here we see plowing: http://tinyurl.com/8fmxe and here harrowing: http://tinyurl.com/zqr2v both of which kill animals by crushing, mutilation, suffocation, and exposing them to predators. We can see that planting kills in similar ways: http://tinyurl.com/k6sku and death from herbicides and pesticides needs to be kept in mind: http://tinyurl.com/ew2j5 Harvesting kills of course by crushing and mutilation, and it also removes the surviving animals' food, and it exposes them to predators: http://tinyurl.com/otp5l In the case of rice there's additional killing as well caused by flooding: http://tinyurl.com/qhqx3 and later by draining and destroying the environment which developed as the result of the flooding: http://tinyurl.com/rc9m3 Cattle eating grass rarely if ever cause anywhere near as much suffering and death. · http://tinyurl.com/q7whm 3. They think we can not acknowledge that a clam's life is worth less than a horse. Well it is. Clearly a clam is less sentient and sapient. Let's get real here. You want me to value and ant over my dog??? "There’s no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. They’re all animals." - Newkirk 4. They think a movement will start where former vegetarians and ethical eaters are going to start eating rare grass fed cows (as if they were ubiquitous) which produce loads of harmful methane, to cut down on the total numbers of deaths. They accept Stephen Davis' numbers blindly with no critical thinking. The meat industry provides life for the animals that it slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume animal products from animals they think are raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by being vegan. From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. · What kind of movement are they talking about? One that provides decent lives for billions of livestock animals. Vegetarian for McDonalds? Obviously not since veg*nism does nothing to help any livestock, much less to provide decent lives for them. They know full well the more workable system is for vegetarians to be vegetarians, not search out grass fed cows. People who want to contribute to decent lives for livestock must do it by being more conscientious consumers of animal products. The can NOT do it by being veg*n. 5. Most of the anti's here aren't in favor of ethical eating and don't admit to finding ethical eating desirable or possible. So they are qualified for this discussion? Obviously people in favor of providing decent animal welfare for livestock are more qualified to discuss it than people who want to eliminate livestock instead. The gross misnomer "animal rights" would not provide better lives, longer lives, rights, or any life at all for domestic animals. The misnomer would ELIMINATE domestic animals which of course would make rights or even decent welfare for them impossible, since they would not exist. Since advocates of the misnomer contribute to almost all if not more wildlife deaths than other people do, we have no reason to believe they would provide rights for wildlife either. The biggest question associated with the misnomer is: Which rights for which animals??? |
#2
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Which rights for which animals? (was: problem with this newsgroup)
Rupert wrote:
On Nov 28, 11:22 am, dh@. wrote: On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:34:46 -0500, "LarryLook" wrote: The problem with this newsgroup is the following. The anti's here are under the assumptions: 1. That vegetarians don't think modern lifestyle kills anything. Some of us don't believe you're honestly too stupid to understand that you contribute to most of the same wildlife deaths that everyone else does. Some of us believe deep down you are actually aware of it, meaning that we think you lie to everyone else in your attempts to promote veg*nism, and possibly even lie to yourselves in order to reduce the discomfort of your cognitive dissonance which results from it. Did you listen to him? He acknowledged that deaths occur in order to support his lifestyle. Screams of the Vegetables by The Arrogant Worms http://www.arrogant-worms.com/ Listen up brothers and sisters, come hear my desperate tale. I speak of our friends of nature, trapped in the dirt like a jail. Vegetables live in oppression, served on our tables each night. This killing of veggies is madness, I say we take up the fight. Salads are only for murderers, coleslaw's a fascist regime. Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cause a radish can't scream. Chorus: I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream) Watching their skins being peeled (having their insides revealed) Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories) How do you think that feels (bet it hurts really bad) Carrot juice constitutes murder (and that's a real crime) Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables go) It's time to stop all this gardening (it's dirty as hell) Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade is a spade) I saw a man eating celery, so I beat him black and blue. If he ever touches a sprout again, I'll bite him clean in two. I'm a political prisoner, trapped in a windowless cage. Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips by killing five men in a rage I told the judge when he sentenced me, This is my finest hour, I'd kill those farmers again just to save one more cauliflower Chorus How low as people do we dare to stoop, Making young broccolis bleed in the soup? Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato! I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream) Watching their skins being peeled (fates in the stirfry are sealed) Grated and steamed with no mercy (you fat gourmet slob) How do you think that feels? (leave them out in the field) Carrot juice constitutes murder (V8's genocide) Greenhouses prisons for slaves (yes, your composts are graves) It's time to stop all this gardening (take up macrame) Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade, is a spade, is a spade, is a spade..... |
#3
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Which rights for which animals? (was: problem with this newsgroup)
Rupert wrote:
On Dec 3, 4:11 am, Bob LeChevalier wrote: Rupert wrote: On Nov 28, 11:22 am, dh@. wrote: On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:34:46 -0500, "LarryLook" wrote: The problem with this newsgroup is the following. The anti's here are under the assumptions: 1. That vegetarians don't think modern lifestyle kills anything. Some of us don't believe you're honestly too stupid to understand that you contribute to most of the same wildlife deaths that everyone else does. Some of us believe deep down you are actually aware of it, meaning that we think you lie to everyone else in your attempts to promote veg*nism, and possibly even lie to yourselves in order to reduce the discomfort of your cognitive dissonance which results from it. Did you listen to him? He acknowledged that deaths occur in order to support his lifestyle. Screams of the Vegetables by The Arrogant Wormshttp://www.arrogant-worms.com/ Listen up brothers and sisters, come hear my desperate tale. I speak of our friends of nature, trapped in the dirt like a jail. Vegetables live in oppression, served on our tables each night. This killing of veggies is madness, I say we take up the fight. Salads are only for murderers, coleslaw's a fascist regime. Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cause a radish can't scream. Chorus: I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream) Watching their skins being peeled (having their insides revealed) Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories) How do you think that feels (bet it hurts really bad) Carrot juice constitutes murder (and that's a real crime) Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables go) It's time to stop all this gardening (it's dirty as hell) Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade is a spade) I saw a man eating celery, so I beat him black and blue. If he ever touches a sprout again, I'll bite him clean in two. I'm a political prisoner, trapped in a windowless cage. Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips by killing five men in a rage I told the judge when he sentenced me, This is my finest hour, I'd kill those farmers again just to save one more cauliflower Chorus How low as people do we dare to stoop, Making young broccolis bleed in the soup? Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato! I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream) Watching their skins being peeled (fates in the stirfry are sealed) Grated and steamed with no mercy (you fat gourmet slob) How do you think that feels? (leave them out in the field) Carrot juice constitutes murder (V8's genocide) Greenhouses prisons for slaves (yes, your composts are graves) It's time to stop all this gardening (take up macrame) Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade, is a spade, is a spade, is a spade.....- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I hope, for your sake, that you are just having a joke and that you realize how stupid this is. The whole topic is a joke. When someone mentions "vegetarian" and "kill" in the same sentence, I think of that song, and I laugh. All ideologies are wrong. It is appropriate to laugh at them. Someone posts ideological discussion to the education newsgroups, and I will laugh at them (especially if they crosspost it to the dog and cat newsgroups) lojbab |
#4
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Which rights for which animals? (was: problem with this newsgroup)
"Bob LeChevalier" wrote in message ...
Rupert wrote: On Dec 3, 4:11 am, Bob LeChevalier wrote: Rupert wrote: On Nov 28, 11:22 am, dh@. wrote: On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:34:46 -0500, "LarryLook" wrote: The problem with this newsgroup is the following. The anti's here are under the assumptions: 1. That vegetarians don't think modern lifestyle kills anything. Some of us don't believe you're honestly too stupid to understand that you contribute to most of the same wildlife deaths that everyone else does. Some of us believe deep down you are actually aware of it, meaning that we think you lie to everyone else in your attempts to promote veg*nism, and possibly even lie to yourselves in order to reduce the discomfort of your cognitive dissonance which results from it. Did you listen to him? He acknowledged that deaths occur in order to support his lifestyle. Screams of the Vegetables by The Arrogant Wormshttp://www.arrogant-worms.com/ Listen up brothers and sisters, come hear my desperate tale. I speak of our friends of nature, trapped in the dirt like a jail. Vegetables live in oppression, served on our tables each night. This killing of veggies is madness, I say we take up the fight. Salads are only for murderers, coleslaw's a fascist regime. Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cause a radish can't scream. Chorus: I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream) Watching their skins being peeled (having their insides revealed) Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories) How do you think that feels (bet it hurts really bad) Carrot juice constitutes murder (and that's a real crime) Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables go) It's time to stop all this gardening (it's dirty as hell) Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade is a spade) I saw a man eating celery, so I beat him black and blue. If he ever touches a sprout again, I'll bite him clean in two. I'm a political prisoner, trapped in a windowless cage. Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips by killing five men in a rage I told the judge when he sentenced me, This is my finest hour, I'd kill those farmers again just to save one more cauliflower Chorus How low as people do we dare to stoop, Making young broccolis bleed in the soup? Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato! I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream) Watching their skins being peeled (fates in the stirfry are sealed) Grated and steamed with no mercy (you fat gourmet slob) How do you think that feels? (leave them out in the field) Carrot juice constitutes murder (V8's genocide) Greenhouses prisons for slaves (yes, your composts are graves) It's time to stop all this gardening (take up macrame) Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade, is a spade, is a spade, is a spade.....- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I hope, for your sake, that you are just having a joke and that you realize how stupid this is. The whole topic is a joke. When someone mentions "vegetarian" and "kill" in the same sentence, I think of that song, and I laugh. All ideologies are wrong. It is appropriate to laugh at them. Someone posts ideological discussion to the education newsgroups, and I will laugh at them (especially if they crosspost it to the dog and cat newsgroups) lojbab Don't be so foolish. Think of this song, and cry. Meat Is Murder / The Smiths Heifer whines could be human cries Closer comes the screaming knife This beautiful creature must die This beautiful creature must die A death for no reason And death for no reason is murder And the flesh you so fancifully fry Is not succulent, tasty or kind Its death for no reason And death for no reason is murder And the calf that you carve with a smile Is murder And the turkey you festively slice Is murder Do you know how animals die ? Kitchen aromas arent very homely Its not comforting, cheery or kind Its sizzling blood and the unholy stench Of murder Its not natural, normal or kind The flesh you so fancifully fry The meat in your mouth As you savour the flavour Of murder No, no, no, its murder No, no, no, its murder Oh ... and who hears when animals cry ? |
#5
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Which rights for which animals? (was: problem with this newsgroup)
In article ,
"pearl" wrote: [SNIP] It[']s not natural Humans are omnivores, as evidenced by (among other things) the teeth and the intestines. So both eating meat and eating veggies are "natural". Whether or not eating meat is considered "ethical" is a whole 'nother kettle of fish (or fava beans). -- --------------------------- | BBB b \ Barbara at LivingHistory stop co stop uk | B B aa rrr b | | BBB a a r bbb | Quidquid latine dictum sit, | B B a a r b b | altum viditur. | BBB aa a r bbb | ----------------------------- |
#6
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Which rights for which animals? (was: problem with this newsgroup)
"Barb Knox" wrote in message ...
In article , "pearl" wrote: [SNIP] It[']s not natural Humans are omnivores, as evidenced by (among other things) the teeth and the intestines. So both eating meat and eating veggies are "natural". It's a very sorry state of affairs when 'we' don't even know what our natural dietary niche is. 'One of the most famous anatomists, Baron Cuvier, wrote: "The natural food of man, judging from his structure, appears to consist principally of the fruits, roots, and other succulent parts of vegetables. His hands afford every facility for gathering them; his short but moderately strong jaws on the other hand, and his canines being equal only in length to the other teeth, together with his tuberculated molars on the other, would scarcely permit him either to masticate herbage, or to devour flesh, were these condiments not previously prepared by cooking." The poet Shelley, in his essay, "A Vindication of a Natural Diet," wrote: "Comparative anatomy teaches us that man resembles the frugivorous animals in everything, the carnivorous in nothing... It is only by softening and disguising dead flesh by culinary preparation that it is rendered susceptible of mastication or digestion, and that the sight of its bloody juices and raw horror does not excite loathing and disgust... ... 'Linneaus, who introduced binomial nomenclature (naming plants and animals according to their physical structure) wrote: "Man's structure, external and internal, compared with that of other animals shows that fruit and succulent vegetables constitute his natural food." Dr. F.A. Pouchet, 19th century author of The Universe, wrote in his Pluralite' de la Race Humaine: "It has been truly said that Man is frugivorous. All the details of his intestinal canal, and above all his dentition, prove it in the most decided manner." Professor William Lawrence, FRS, in his lectures delivered at the Royal College of Surgeons in 1822, said: "The teeth of man have not the slightest resemblance to those of the carnivorous animals, excepting that their enamel is confined to the external surface. He possesses, indeed, teeth called canine; but they do not exceed the level of others, and are obviously unsuited to the purposes which the corresponding teeth execute in carnivorous animals. Thus we find, whether we consider the teeth and jaws, or the immediate instruments of digestion, that the human structure closely resembles that of the apes, all of whom, in their natural state, are completely herbivorous (frugivorous)." Professor Charles Bell, FRS, wrote in his 1829 work, Anatomy, Physiology, and Diseases of the Teeth: "It is, I think, not going too far to say that every fact connected with the human organisation goes to prove that man was originally formed a frugivorous animal. This opinion is derived principally from the formation of his teeth and digestive organs, as well as from the character of his skin and the general structure of his limbs." Professor Richard Owen, FRS, in his elaborate 1845 work, Odontography, wrote: "The apes and monkeys, whom man nearly resembles in his dentition, derive their staple food from fruits, grain, the kernels of nuts, and other forms in which the most sapid and nutritious tissues of the vegetable kingdom are elaborated; and the close resemblance between the quadrumanous and the human dentition shows that man was, from the beginning, adapted to eat the fruit of the tree of the garden." ... "Man, by nature, was never made to be a carnivorous animal," wrote John Ray, FRS, "nor is he armed for prey or rapine, with jagged and pointed teeth, and claws to rend and tear; but with gentle hands to gather fruit and vegetables, and with teeth to chew and eat them." According to Dr. Spenser Thompson, "No physiologist would dispute with those who maintain that men ought to have a vegetable diet." Dr. S.M. Whitaker, MRCS, LRCP, in Man's Natural Food: An Enquiry, concluded, "Comparative anatomy and physiology indicate fresh fruits and vegetables as the main food of man." More recently, William S. Collens and Gerald B. Dobkens concluded: "Examination of the dental structure of modern man reveals that he possesses all the features of a strictly herbivorous animal. While designed to subsist on vegetarian foods, he has perverted his dietary habits to accept food of the carnivore. It is postulated that man cannot handle carnivorous foods like the carnivore. Herein may lie the basis for the high incidence of arteriosclerotic disease." ...' http://www.all-creatures.org/murti/tsnhod-14.html 'Furthermore, William C. Roberts, M.D., Professor and Director of the Baylor University Medical Center, and Editor in Chief of the American Journal of Cardiology, stated in this peer-reviewed journal, Thus, although we think we are one and we act as if we are one, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings, who are natural herbivores.[11] ... [11] Roberts, William C. American Journal of Cardiology. Volume 66, P. 896. 1 Oct, 1990 . ...' http://animalliberationfront.com/Phi...f_property.htm 'There appears to be no threshold of plant-food enrichment or minimization of fat intake beyond which further disease prevention does not occur. These findings suggest that even small intakes of foods of animal origin are associated with significant increases in plasma cholesterol concentrations, which are associated, in turn, with significant increases in chronic degenerative disease mortality rates. - Campbell TC, Junshi C. Diet and chronic degenerative diseases: perspectives from China. Am J Clin Nutr 1994 May;59 (5 Suppl):1153S-1161S.' Whether or not eating meat is considered "ethical" is a whole 'nother kettle of fish (or fava beans). You are familiar with The Golden Rule? "Do unto others.... |
#7
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Which rights for which animals? (was: problem with this newsgroup)
Rupert wrote:
There are plenty of respectable arguments for ethical vegetarianism. All based on assumptions that are peculiar to the ethical vegetarian, and hence utterly meaningless to all the rest of us that reject those assumptions. You have given no evidence that you are aware of what they are. There are meaningless to me, so I have tuned them out. You are welcome to laugh at ethical vegetarianism if you want, I laugh at all isms. It's very interesting that you can dismiss a belief system purely on the grounds that it is "ideological". What's your definition of an ideology? The inherently flawed idea that a group of assumptions is Truth and that they can be systematically applied to real life. This usually ends up involving the redefinition of words from the meaning used by everyone else to some peculiar form that is a nice inside-joke for the True Believers. The redefinition of "murder" to include animals is one such redefinition, and it begs the question of why killing animals is murder, but not killing vegetables? Hence the song I posted. I apologize if your newsgroups have been polluted with a topic you don't regard as worthy of serious consideration. It was David Harrison who did that, for reasons best known to himself, not the ethical vegetarians. No apology is necessary. One merely had to look at the header lists to see that it wasn't serious discussion. lojbab |
#8
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Which rights for which animals? (was: problem with this newsgroup)
"Bob LeChevalier" wrote in message ...
The redefinition of "murder" to include animals is one such redefinition, 'murder ... v.tr. 1. To kill (another human) unlawfully. 2. To kill brutally or inhumanly. ... http://www.answers.com/murder&r=67 "The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men." - Leonardo da Vinci, artist and scientist. |
#9
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Which rights for which animals? (was: problem with this newsgroup)
"Michael Gordge" wrote in message ... On Dec 4, 2:16 pm, Bob LeChevalier wrote: Rupert wrote: On Dec 3, 4:11 am, Bob LeChevalier wrote: Rupert wrote: On Nov 28, 11:22 am, dh@. wrote: On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:34:46 -0500, "LarryLook" wrote: The problem with this newsgroup is the following. The anti's here are under the assumptions: 1. That vegetarians don't think modern lifestyle kills anything. Some of us don't believe you're honestly too stupid to understand that you contribute to most of the same wildlife deaths that everyone else does. Some of us believe deep down you are actually aware of it, meaning that we think you lie to everyone else in your attempts to promote veg*nism, and possibly even lie to yourselves in order to reduce the discomfort of your cognitive dissonance which results from it. Did you listen to him? He acknowledged that deaths occur in order to support his lifestyle. Screams of the Vegetables by The Arrogant Wormshttp://www.arrogant-worms.com/ Listen up brothers and sisters, come hear my desperate tale. I speak of our friends of nature, trapped in the dirt like a jail. Vegetables live in oppression, served on our tables each night. This killing of veggies is madness, I say we take up the fight. Salads are only for murderers, coleslaw's a fascist regime. Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cause a radish can't scream. Chorus: I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream) Watching their skins being peeled (having their insides revealed) Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories) How do you think that feels (bet it hurts really bad) Carrot juice constitutes murder (and that's a real crime) Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables go) It's time to stop all this gardening (it's dirty as hell) Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade is a spade) I saw a man eating celery, so I beat him black and blue. If he ever touches a sprout again, I'll bite him clean in two. I'm a political prisoner, trapped in a windowless cage. Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips by killing five men in a rage I told the judge when he sentenced me, This is my finest hour, I'd kill those farmers again just to save one more cauliflower Chorus How low as people do we dare to stoop, Making young broccolis bleed in the soup? Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato! I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream) Watching their skins being peeled (fates in the stirfry are sealed) Grated and steamed with no mercy (you fat gourmet slob) How do you think that feels? (leave them out in the field) Carrot juice constitutes murder (V8's genocide) Greenhouses prisons for slaves (yes, your composts are graves) It's time to stop all this gardening (take up macrame) Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade, is a spade, is a spade, is a spade.....- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I hope, for your sake, that you are just having a joke and that you realize how stupid this is. The whole topic is a joke. When someone mentions "vegetarian" and "kill" in the same sentence, I think of that song, and I laugh. All ideologies are wrong. It is appropriate to laugh at them. Someone posts ideological discussion to the education newsgroups, and I will laugh at them (especially if they crosspost it to the dog and cat newsgroups) lojbab- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I only ever eat vegetarian meat. Of course! For you'd starve if you were left to grow apples. Loser. MG |
#10
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Which rights for which animals? (was: problem with this newsgroup)
"pearl" wrote:
"Bob LeChevalier" wrote in message ... The redefinition of "murder" to include animals is one such redefinition, 'murder .. v.tr. 1. To kill (another human) unlawfully. 2. To kill brutally or inhumanly. .. http://www.answers.com/murder&r=67 "The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men." - Leonardo da Vinci, artist and scientist. So what excuses killing vegetables from this definition. What we do to prepare vegetables is at least as "brutal" as what we do to animals. Of course, it is hard to argue that killing plants or animals is "inhuman" since we've been doing it as a norm since we've existed as a species. lojbab |
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