declawing

Katra wrote:

That's pretty much it...
I have mixed feelings about the entire situation.
That baby is SO important to me... Would I maim Shade if I had really
known the facts? I probably would have at least given soft paws
another
try first. We only tried them once.

I'm glad to hear that. And there are so many other things to try: Feliway,
changing your interaction with him, changing his environment, and probably
other things that I can't think of right now (but some of the others might
be able to list them). At the very least, the cat could be kept in another
room temporarily whenever baby needed to be unsupervised for a few minutes.
I know a baby is SO important, but if you're going to have a cat, that cat's
welfare has to be at least as important, or you're better off not having it.
I know it might seem extreme to compare the cat's welfare to the baby's, but
a pet is chosen just like a baby, is your responsibility, and depends on you
to look out for it's welfare. I'm not judging you, I'm just saying that,
while I understand why you did what you did this time, I hope you wouldn't
consider it an option in the future under any but medical circumstances. It
just seems like there's got to be a better answer that would still keep the
baby safe, but without having to put the cat through that.

Anyway, what's done is done; I just hope you can help Shade through any
difficulties he's still having, or may be having due to the declaw. I know
he sounds like a real Booger, and he's been that way for awhile, but don't
give up on him; hopefully, one of those articles might have something
helpful to offer. It just seems like there must be a reason for his
behavior, if only you could find out what it is....

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

kaeli enlightened us with:

Discipline has a lot more to it than hitting.

Very true, never said there wasn't a lot more to it.

Plenty of children were raised with discipline
without needing to be hit. No one in my family
has ever needed to hit a child to get a point
across to him or her. We are all just fine and
nothing close to "delinquents". All graduated at
least high school with good grades (some went
to college for BS degrees, others went on to
become a cop, a firefighter, a paramedic, and a
paralegal), none were arrested or did drugs or
got pregnant or hurt other people, and all are
now happy, adjusted adults. We all have nice
careers and respect for other living beings. We
don't feel the need to hit something to make a
point.

And plenty have been raised with spankings and have gone on to the same
things as you and your family. But spanking a child doesn't make you a
child abuser, not even close to it.

There are much better ways to discipline
a child (or an animal) than to hit it.

I didn't mention anything about hitting an animal, my response was
solely to the child abuse comment.

Then again, maybe some people just prefer to
use violence to teach. I know some of my
friends in high school used to get hit - they are
in jail, in a drug rehab program, and one got
pregnant in high school, unmarried, and never
finished school.

And I know some (most) of my friends who got hit that didn't end up in
any trouble at all, it goes both ways.

And my daughters have plenty of friends/peers in high school now, who's
parents don't believe in what they like to call corporal punishment,
(spanking). Some of them are rude nasty kids (more so then just teenage
attitudes). They are spoiled pampered brats that have no respect for
authority, but are damn good at fooling their parents into believing
that they are angels, yes I have asked a few of them and they will admit
it. Mind you they also have friends that that don't get hit that are
good kids. But they also have friends that do get hit that are also
good kids. Again it goes both ways.
I've got family and friends, all were spanked, that are well
respected in their communities and are also happy and healthy. They are
doctors, teachers owners of buisnesses, paralegal ect...
Love and compassion are two of the biggest components to raising a
child. But if one of my kids needed a good swat they got it and they
knew it. They also knew/know that it never meant/means I didn't love
them any less. Nothing IMO is worse then being out in public
whether it be a Doctors office or the grocery store with someones kid
running around screaming and the parents saying "you need to stop or
you'll get a time out when we get home sweety" (or something along those
lines).
Anyway my whole point was that spanking a child does not make you a
child abuser!

Nadine

kaeli enlightened us with:

Discipline has a lot more to it than hitting.

Very true, never said there wasn't a lot more to it.

Plenty of children were raised with discipline
without needing to be hit. No one in my family
has ever needed to hit a child to get a point
across to him or her. We are all just fine and
nothing close to "delinquents". All graduated at
least high school with good grades (some went
to college for BS degrees, others went on to
become a cop, a firefighter, a paramedic, and a
paralegal), none were arrested or did drugs or
got pregnant or hurt other people, and all are
now happy, adjusted adults. We all have nice
careers and respect for other living beings. We
don't feel the need to hit something to make a
point.

And plenty have been raised with spankings and have gone on to the same
things as you and your family. But spanking a child doesn't make you a
child abuser, not even close to it.

There are much better ways to discipline
a child (or an animal) than to hit it.

I didn't mention anything about hitting an animal, my response was
solely to the child abuse comment.

Then again, maybe some people just prefer to
use violence to teach. I know some of my
friends in high school used to get hit - they are
in jail, in a drug rehab program, and one got
pregnant in high school, unmarried, and never
finished school.

And I know some (most) of my friends who got hit that didn't end up in
any trouble at all, it goes both ways.

And my daughters have plenty of friends/peers in high school now, who's
parents don't believe in what they like to call corporal punishment,
(spanking). Some of them are rude nasty kids (more so then just teenage
attitudes). They are spoiled pampered brats that have no respect for
authority, but are damn good at fooling their parents into believing
that they are angels, yes I have asked a few of them and they will admit
it. Mind you they also have friends that that don't get hit that are
good kids. But they also have friends that do get hit that are also
good kids. Again it goes both ways.
I've got family and friends, all were spanked, that are well
respected in their communities and are also happy and healthy. They are
doctors, teachers owners of buisnesses, paralegal ect...
Love and compassion are two of the biggest components to raising a
child. But if one of my kids needed a good swat they got it and they
knew it. They also knew/know that it never meant/means I didn't love
them any less. Nothing IMO is worse then being out in public
whether it be a Doctors office or the grocery store with someones kid
running around screaming and the parents saying "you need to stop or
you'll get a time out when we get home sweety" (or something along those
lines).
Anyway my whole point was that spanking a child does not make you a
child abuser!

Nadine

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
(D. Stephen Heersink) wrote in
:

I've always declawed my cats because they are always indoors and if I
don't, they will claw the furniture and me. Since I have expensive
furniture and don't want scars on me, I've found the declawing a cat
is the best way to accomplish our mutual goals.

You appear to think forums such as this are only read by people in N
America. That is not the case and everywhere else declawing is considered
barbaric. Get a clue. Scars on you; what a wuss. Furniture is more
important? Get a fish. ****head.

--
Cheryl

And, of course, many of us in N. America also consider declawing to be
barbaric. The irony of D. Heersink's message about "expensive furniture" is
that cats should be more important than furniture but the two actually are
not mutually exclusive. I have very good furniture and two cats with claws
(plus previous cats with claws), but no scratches. As someone else
mentioned, the only scratches I get are on window sills (easily repaired).
I do have scratching posts that get mangled, but that is their purpose!

MaryL

Photos of Duffy and Holly (pictorial history of my blind cat Duffy's
integration into our household):
Duffy, Part I: The Introduction -- http://tinyurl.com/8y54
Duffy, Part II: Life at Home -- http://tinyurl.com/8y56

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
(D. Stephen Heersink) wrote in
:

I've always declawed my cats because they are always indoors and if I
don't, they will claw the furniture and me. Since I have expensive
furniture and don't want scars on me, I've found the declawing a cat
is the best way to accomplish our mutual goals.

You appear to think forums such as this are only read by people in N
America. That is not the case and everywhere else declawing is considered
barbaric. Get a clue. Scars on you; what a wuss. Furniture is more
important? Get a fish. ****head.

--
Cheryl

And, of course, many of us in N. America also consider declawing to be
barbaric. The irony of D. Heersink's message about "expensive furniture" is
that cats should be more important than furniture but the two actually are
not mutually exclusive. I have very good furniture and two cats with claws
(plus previous cats with claws), but no scratches. As someone else
mentioned, the only scratches I get are on window sills (easily repaired).
I do have scratching posts that get mangled, but that is their purpose!

MaryL

Photos of Duffy and Holly (pictorial history of my blind cat Duffy's
integration into our household):
Duffy, Part I: The Introduction -- http://tinyurl.com/8y54
Duffy, Part II: Life at Home -- http://tinyurl.com/8y56

In article ,
enlightened us with...

kaeli enlightened us with:

Discipline has a lot more to it than hitting.

Very true, never said there wasn't a lot more to it.


No, but you said

"Spanking (not beating) a child is not child abuse. It's called
discipline"

which to me implied that to not spank is to not discipline. Which simply
isn't true at all. I apologize if that wasn't what you meant.


And plenty have been raised with spankings and have gone on to the same
things as you and your family. But spanking a child doesn't make you a
child abuser, not even close to it.


What is your definition of spanking?
To me, spanking is NOT a little, light crack on the behind. That is IMO
unnecessary, but not abuse.
Spanking, to me, is putting the kid over your knee and repeatedly
striking the child with your hand or an object. THAT is abusive.
To me, it is also abuse to strike a child anywhere on the head or face,
even once.

There are much better ways to discipline
a child (or an animal) than to hit it.

I didn't mention anything about hitting an animal, my response was
solely to the child abuse comment.


I was generalizing. However, does that mean you think it's okay to hit a
child, but not an animal?


And I know some (most) of my friends who got hit that didn't end up in
any trouble at all, it goes both ways.

I'm sure it does. Most things do. My point was spanking doesn't
necessarily make a good kid and not spanking doesn't necessarily make a
brat. If one can raise a good child without the need to hit it, why
would there be a reason to hit at all?


And my daughters have plenty of friends/peers in high school now, who's
parents don't believe in what they like to call corporal punishment,
(spanking). Some of them are rude nasty kids (more so then just teenage
attitudes). They are spoiled pampered brats that have no respect for
authority, but are damn good at fooling their parents into believing
that they are angels,

There are a lot of "yuppie" spoiled brats these days, but I think that
has nothing at all to do with spanking and everything to do with
parenting.

Love and compassion are two of the biggest components to raising a
child. But if one of my kids needed a good swat they got it and they
knew it.

I think that is a big difference here - a swat. Not a spanking. Not
hitting it over and over with your hand or an object. I don't think even
a swat is necessary, but it is not abuse.

They also knew/know that it never meant/means I didn't love
them any less. Nothing IMO is worse then being out in public
whether it be a Doctors office or the grocery store with someones kid
running around screaming and the parents saying "you need to stop or
you'll get a time out when we get home sweety" (or something along those
lines).

Oh, that is the WORST!
But, again, that's really about parenting. Those parents coddle and
plead and try to reason with a three year old. They act like it will
damage the child to hear "no" FCOL.
Nope, I was not allowed to act that way. No child should be. They become
spoiled, nasty adults.

Anyway my whole point was that spanking a child does not make you a
child abuser!


I think it does - but I also think I think of "spanking" differently
than you meant it.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
Who is General Failure and why is he reading
my hard disk?
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

In article ,
enlightened us with...

kaeli enlightened us with:

Discipline has a lot more to it than hitting.

Very true, never said there wasn't a lot more to it.


No, but you said

"Spanking (not beating) a child is not child abuse. It's called
discipline"

which to me implied that to not spank is to not discipline. Which simply
isn't true at all. I apologize if that wasn't what you meant.


And plenty have been raised with spankings and have gone on to the same
things as you and your family. But spanking a child doesn't make you a
child abuser, not even close to it.


What is your definition of spanking?
To me, spanking is NOT a little, light crack on the behind. That is IMO
unnecessary, but not abuse.
Spanking, to me, is putting the kid over your knee and repeatedly
striking the child with your hand or an object. THAT is abusive.
To me, it is also abuse to strike a child anywhere on the head or face,
even once.

There are much better ways to discipline
a child (or an animal) than to hit it.

I didn't mention anything about hitting an animal, my response was
solely to the child abuse comment.


I was generalizing. However, does that mean you think it's okay to hit a
child, but not an animal?


And I know some (most) of my friends who got hit that didn't end up in
any trouble at all, it goes both ways.

I'm sure it does. Most things do. My point was spanking doesn't
necessarily make a good kid and not spanking doesn't necessarily make a
brat. If one can raise a good child without the need to hit it, why
would there be a reason to hit at all?


And my daughters have plenty of friends/peers in high school now, who's
parents don't believe in what they like to call corporal punishment,
(spanking). Some of them are rude nasty kids (more so then just teenage
attitudes). They are spoiled pampered brats that have no respect for
authority, but are damn good at fooling their parents into believing
that they are angels,

There are a lot of "yuppie" spoiled brats these days, but I think that
has nothing at all to do with spanking and everything to do with
parenting.

Love and compassion are two of the biggest components to raising a
child. But if one of my kids needed a good swat they got it and they
knew it.

I think that is a big difference here - a swat. Not a spanking. Not
hitting it over and over with your hand or an object. I don't think even
a swat is necessary, but it is not abuse.

They also knew/know that it never meant/means I didn't love
them any less. Nothing IMO is worse then being out in public
whether it be a Doctors office or the grocery store with someones kid
running around screaming and the parents saying "you need to stop or
you'll get a time out when we get home sweety" (or something along those
lines).

Oh, that is the WORST!
But, again, that's really about parenting. Those parents coddle and
plead and try to reason with a three year old. They act like it will
damage the child to hear "no" FCOL.
Nope, I was not allowed to act that way. No child should be. They become
spoiled, nasty adults.

Anyway my whole point was that spanking a child does not make you a
child abuser!


I think it does - but I also think I think of "spanking" differently
than you meant it.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
Who is General Failure and why is he reading
my hard disk?
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------

This whole declawing debate being detrimental to the cat is ridiculous!
I have one cat that I rescued from the shelter that is front declawed.

She has yet to have a SINGLE one of the problems mentioned here!
AFAIK, you are all sooo full of ****! Just a bunch of PETA coverts.
And scare mongers...
The odds of a cat developing a behavior problem after being declawed-

Well 2.5 out of every 5 cats do. Not odds I 'd want to go for. Far to many
cats are in shelters that have been declawed.

Yes, there are OCCASIONAL problems that occur from any SINGLE surgery,
but what are the odds? Few and far between. What are the complications
of spay surgeries? What are the alternatives?


Regards,

http://www.i-love-cats.com/meow/feralfelines/

This whole declawing debate being detrimental to the cat is ridiculous!
I have one cat that I rescued from the shelter that is front declawed.

She has yet to have a SINGLE one of the problems mentioned here!
AFAIK, you are all sooo full of ****! Just a bunch of PETA coverts.
And scare mongers...
The odds of a cat developing a behavior problem after being declawed-

Well 2.5 out of every 5 cats do. Not odds I 'd want to go for. Far to many
cats are in shelters that have been declawed.

Yes, there are OCCASIONAL problems that occur from any SINGLE surgery,
but what are the odds? Few and far between. What are the complications
of spay surgeries? What are the alternatives?


Regards,

http://www.i-love-cats.com/meow/feralfelines/

"MaryL" wrote in message ...
"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
(D. Stephen Heersink) wrote in
:

I've always declawed my cats because they are always indoors and if I
don't, they will claw the furniture and me. Since I have expensive
furniture and don't want scars on me, I've found the declawing a cat
is the best way to accomplish our mutual goals.

You appear to think forums such as this are only read by people in N
America. That is not the case and everywhere else declawing is considered
barbaric. Get a clue. Scars on you; what a wuss. Furniture is more
important? Get a fish. ****head.

--
Cheryl

And, of course, many of us in N. America also consider declawing to be
barbaric. The irony of D. Heersink's message about "expensive furniture" is
that cats should be more important than furniture but the two actually are
not mutually exclusive. I have very good furniture and two cats with claws
(plus previous cats with claws), but no scratches. As someone else
mentioned, the only scratches I get are on window sills (easily repaired).
I do have scratching posts that get mangled, but that is their purpose!

MaryL


The last couch I bought for the livingroom had a metal frame...
Problem solved. ;-) Sisal scratching posts are cheap to either make or buy,
and the cats will PREFER to use them instead of the furniture, especially
if you rub fresh catnip on it. I have a large organic catnip patch out back
in the gardens.

Nothing funnier than a pack of stoned kitties. g
Please don't flame me for that, I only give them catnip every couple
of weeks....

Carpet samples turned upside down are an even bigger favorite, as are
the cardboard scratchers that can be purchased at petsmart. I'm considering
stapling some of the carpet samples to boards.

My cats favorite scratching posts tho' have been office room dividers!
They are covered with a burlap type surface, and I picked up 3 of them
for 5 bucks each from a local furniture recycler. The cats love to climb
them and perch on top, and of coarse, scratch them up. They look a bit
ratty after a bit but they are in the cat room so I don't care.....

K.