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#21
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Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast
cybercat wrote:
"Rhonda" wrote Hey Cindy, This was an interesting bit of additional grossness from one cat site: -------------------- Definition: Meat By-Products are parts of slaughtered animals, not including meat (please note: no muscle meat included). Included are lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, liver, blood, bone, partially defatted low-temperature fatty tissue, and stomach and intestines freed of their contents. What AAFCO doesn't mention is that meat byproducts may also legally contain: "4D animals (dead, dying, diseased, down), road kill, euthanized cats and dogs, including their collars. These source products are rendered, the fat is siphoned off to be used as "animal fat," and the remaining material is extruded to form "meat by-product meal." From: http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglos...meatbyprod.htm -------------------- Rhonda, I don't believe that the pet food we buy in the US can contain euthanized dogs and cats and their collars. Horse ****. Oh no. Horse **** is now in pet foods too? Rhonda |
#22
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Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil --
cybercat wrote:
"Rhonda" wrote What AAFCO doesn't mention is that meat byproducts may also legally contain: "4D animals (dead, dying, diseased, down), road kill, euthanized cats and dogs, including their collars. These source products are rendered, the fat is siphoned off to be used as "animal fat," and the remaining material is extruded to form "meat by-product meal." I note that although the author puts this section in quotes, she does not name her source. I looked but can't find a way to email her from the site. It may be true, but it sure doesn't ring true to me. Okay, I read a few more sites. Below is part of an interesting one. I think from now on I'm just going to feed our cats mice. -Rhonda Animal Protein Dogs and cats are carnivores, and do best on a meat-based diet. The protein used in pet food comes from a variety of sources. When cattle, swine, chickens, lambs, or other animals are slaughtered, lean muscle tissue is trimmed away from the carcass for human consumption, along with the few organs that people like to eat, such as tongues and tripe. However, about 50% of every food animal does not get used in human foods. Whatever remains of the carcass — heads, feet, bones, blood, intestines, lungs, spleens, livers, ligaments, fat trimmings, unborn babies, and other parts not generally consumed by humans — is used in pet food, animal feed, fertilizer, industrial lubricants, soap, rubber, and other products. These “other parts” are known as “by-products.” By-products are used in feed for poultry and livestock as well as in pet food. The nutritional quality of by-products, meals, and digests can vary from batch to batch. James Morris and Quinton Rogers, of the University of California at Davis Veterinary School, assert that, “[pet food] ingredients are generally by-products of the meat, poultry and fishing industries, with the potential for a wide variation in nutrient composition. Claims of nutritional adequacy of pet foods based on the current Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) nutrient allowances (‘profiles’) do not give assurances of nutritional adequacy and will not until ingredients are analyzed and bioavailability values are incorporated.”3 Meat or poultry “by-products” are very common in wet pet foods. Remember that “meat” refers to only cows, swine, sheep, and goats. Since sheep and goats are rare compared to the 37 million cows and 100 million hogs slaughtered for food every year, nearly all meat by-products come from cattle and pigs. The better brands of pet food, such as many “super-premium,” “natural,” and “organic” varieties, do not use by-products. On the label, you’ll see one or more named meats among the first few ingredients, such as “turkey” or “lamb.” These meats are still mainly leftover scraps; in the case of poultry, bones are allowed, so “chicken” consists mainly of backs and frames—the spine and ribs, minus their expensive breast meat. The small amount of meat left on the bones is the meat in the pet food. Even with this less-attractive source, pet food marketers are very tricky when talking about meat, so this is explained further in the section on “Marketing Magic” below. Meat meals, poultry meals, by-product meals, and meat-and-bone meal are common ingredients in dry pet foods. The term “meal” means that these materials are not used fresh, but have been rendered. While there are chicken, turkey, and poultry by-product meals there is no equivalent term for mammal “meat by-product meal” — it is called “meat-and-bone-meal.” It may also be referred to by species, such as “beef-and-bone-meal” or “pork-and-bone-meal.” What is rendering? As defined by Webster’s Dictionary, to render is “to process as for industrial use: to render livestock carcasses and to extract oil from fat, blubber, etc., by melting.” In other words, raw materials are dumped into large vat and boiled for several hours. Rendering separates fat, removes water, and kills bacteria, viruses, parasites, and other organisms. However, the high temperatures used (270°F/130°C) can alter or destroy natural enzymes and proteins found in the raw ingredients. Because of persistent rumors that rendered by-products contain dead dogs and cats, the FDA conducted a study looking for pentobarbital, the most common euthanasia drug, in pet foods. They found it. Ingredients that were most commonly associated with the presence of pentobarbital were meat-and-bone-meal and animal fat. However, they also used very sensitive tests to look for canine and feline DNA, which were not found. Industry insiders admit that rendered pets and roadkill were used in pet food some years ago. Although there are still no laws or regulations against it, the practice is uncommon today, and pet food companies universally deny that their products contain any such materials. However, so-called “4D” animals (dead, dying, diseased, disabled) were only recently banned for human consumption and are still legitimate ingredients for pet food. http://www.api4animals.org/facts?p=359&more=1 |
#23
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Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast
"Rhonda" wrote : Rhonda, I don't believe that the pet food we buy in the US can contain euthanized dogs and cats and their collars. Horse ****. Oh no. Horse **** is now in pet foods too? Rhonda hahaha! What a style you have! |
#24
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Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast
"Rhonda" wrote : Because of persistent rumors that rendered by-products contain dead dogs and cats, the FDA conducted a study looking for pentobarbital, the most common euthanasia drug, in pet foods. They found it. Ingredients that were most commonly associated with the presence of pentobarbital were meat-and-bone-meal and animal fat. However, they also used very sensitive tests to look for canine and feline DNA, which were not found. Industry insiders admit that rendered pets and roadkill were used in pet food some years ago. Although there are still no laws or regulations against it, the practice is uncommon today, and pet food companies universally deny that their products contain any such materials. However, so-called “4D” animals (dead, dying, diseased, disabled) were only recently banned for human consumption and are still legitimate ingredients for pet food. If no cat or dog DNA, then no pets. Good to know. Maybe the pentobarbital is used to euthanize injured livestock? Thanks for looking this up for me, Rhonda. |
#25
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Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast
Rhonda wrote: sniperoo Because of persistent rumors that rendered by-products contain dead dogs and cats, the FDA conducted a study looking for pentobarbital, the most common euthanasia drug, in pet foods. They found it. Ingredients that were most commonly associated with the presence of pentobarbital were meat-and-bone-meal and animal fat. However, they also used very sensitive tests to look for canine and feline DNA, which were not found. Doesn't mean much. There are a number of ways the DNA might not show up: If dogs and cats are a minimal additive, as compared to cow or beef; if the product is heated at high enough temps the DNA is denatured resulting in false negatives; since there are tons of other enzymes floating around in the mix, the DNA is probably chewed beyond the point where it could be found using PCR which is probably what they used; and the experiments may be poorly designed. I would be interested to see what positive controls they used in the experiments. Basically, they would need to add dog and/or cat bodies to processing-sized vats of other meats in different concentrations until the DNA could be detected, and then, IF the amount detected was small enough to be significant and easily detected, they could extrapolate whether or not production vats are likely to have contained dogs and/or cats based on their sampling results. To do this experiment properly, it would be extremely expensive. Knowing the FDA as I do, I find it highly unlikely that they did anything more than take multiple samples and test it for dog and cat DNA at *some* level, which may or may not be relevant. Sorry if this doesn't make complete sense - I am surfing on a killer migraine today... -L. |
#26
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Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast
On Jun 30, 2:51 am, "-L." wrote:
Sorry if this doesn't make complete sense - I am surfing on a killer migraine today... -L. what's the problem |
#27
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Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast
"-L." wrote in message oups.com... Doesn't mean much. There are a number of ways the DNA might not show up: If dogs and cats are a minimal additive, as compared to cow or beef; if the product is heated at high enough temps the DNA is denatured resulting in false negatives; since there are tons of other enzymes floating around in the mix, the DNA is probably chewed beyond the point where it could be found using PCR which is probably what they used; and the experiments may be poorly designed. The question is, why would anyone bother trying to feed cats and dogs to cats and dogs? |
#28
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Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast
"cybercat" wrote in message ... "-L." wrote in message oups.com... Doesn't mean much. There are a number of ways the DNA might not show up: If dogs and cats are a minimal additive, as compared to cow or beef; if the product is heated at high enough temps the DNA is denatured resulting in false negatives; since there are tons of other enzymes floating around in the mix, the DNA is probably chewed beyond the point where it could be found using PCR which is probably what they used; and the experiments may be poorly designed. The question is, why would anyone bother trying to feed cats and dogs to cats and dogs? I wouldn't give much credibility to anything written by the API . They're on the fringe-- right next to Ann Martin! |
#29
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Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast
"cindys" wrote in message ... "Phil P." wrote in message news:u5Cfi.10473$xy.8716@trnddc06... "cindys" wrote in message ... Hiya Cindi, Hi yourself, Phil! products. Then, I moved to FF because I considered that it was better quality. It is- much higher protein content. As time went on, after reading this newsgroup, and after I did a bunch of reading on the internet about the importance/quality of muscle meats as opposed to byproducts Actually, by-products contain *much* more nutrients than muscle meats. Muscle meat (skeletal meat) is very deficient in most vitamins and minerals, Cats in the wild eat much more by-products than skeletal meat I thought the by-products were processed parts of the animals, parts that were unusable for humans and would be rejected by the FDA. Most of the cat's natural diet would be rejected by the FDA. and after I read some excerpts from the book _Foods Pets Die For_ and learned the source of those byproducts, Oh no! Not Ann Martin! LOL! We sliced, diced and shredded most of her bull**** exaggerations a few years ago. She hasn't been back since. Thanks for saving me time and money. I was going to buy her book. Now, I won't. Her bull**** claims and exaggerations didn't stand up to scrutiny. She took a few isolated instances from a few low-end generic pet food manufacturers and extrapolated then to the whole pet food industry. If you ask me, she isn't playing with a full deck-- and then of course the melamine thing, A real nightmare for sure. But that was actually caused by one person. Yup. Watch the incidence of CRF in cats start declining. The person didn't just decide to dump a load of melamine in the wheat gluten- it was gradual-- to see how much he could get away with- Yup. I wanted to feed my cats human grade cat food which by definition cannot contain byproducts. I'm not sure you really understand what by-products are. Human foods contain by-products. This is the AAFCO definition: "Meat by-products is the non-rendered, clean parts, other than meat, derived from slaughtered mammals. It includes, but is not limited to, lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, livers, blood, bone, partially defatted low temperature fatty tissue, and stomachs and intestines freed of their contents. It does not include hair, horns, teeth and hoofs. It shall be suitable for use in animal food. If it bears name descriptive of its kind, it must correspond thereto. (9.3)" This is just the opposite of what I thought the byproducts were. I thought they were rendered, nonclean parts etc and *did* include horns, hair, teeth, hoofs, etc However, I *thought* I got my information regarding the preferability of muscle meats from the website where the veterinarian explains about cat food and then recommends a few different ones, but I've read so many things, I really can't say for sure. Who was the vat? Pitcairn? lol Go to the USDA Nutrient Database and look up the nutrient content of muscle meats-- you'll see they contain little to no vitamins and very little minerals. By-products got a bad name from the au natural fanatics and Nutro. I also needed to choose one that contained few carbohydrates because of the diabetes and that was how I eventually came to Wellness. I don't know if you know that Wellnesss is manufactured by Menu Foods, too. Wellness also contains a lot of vegetables which have a higher glycemic index than most grains. Interesting. At one point, I was buying Pet Promise, which I still think is an excellent quality food, but it does contain rice and potatoes. I had asked my vet if she thought FF was a good choice, and she stated that she wouldn't recommend any supermarket pet food. Most vets are clueless about nutrition. They're "educated" by pet food manufacturers' reps. I can't speak for the supermarket brand, but I did know the Pet Promise was good food and it was available in the supermarket. When I asked the vet about it, she was completely unfamiliar with it. I currently have been feeding my cats Wellness and FF because they really like it (despite the byproducts). My cats seem to only be willing to eat the pate varieties. I try to avoid the varieties that are chunks or slices in gravy because my cats just lick off the gravy and leave the rest. Best regards, ---Cindy S. I'm really happy you've weaned your cat off insulin!!! It happened almost immediately after I put him on canned food (and Purina OM dry). I've weaned several diabetic cats off insulin by feeding them Fancy Feast Oceanfish and Tuna. That's another flavor I sometimes buy in addition to the Tender Beef Feast. Phil, I just want to thank you again for all your help. I also want to share with you (and don't ask me how this could be, but I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth), that Alex's BUN is back to being within normal limits. His creatinine is still abnormal but has come down considerably and is much closer to the normal range. I'm glad to hear it- but I'm not surprised- Omega-3s are renoprotective. My CRF cat's renal parameters are back in the normal range- even her USG has increased since I've been giving her omega-3s and K+ supplements. I followed your advice and did not put him on low protein cat food (contrary to the vet's advice). I also give him potassium and omega-3 supplementation on the basis of your advice. I'm very happy you decided against a low protein diet at this point. I have done subcu fluids a few times, but overall not, as the vet says he doesn't really need them at this point. I can't say he's bouncy and perky, but for a senior cat, he's doing okay. I do give him Pepcid daily now and that seems to keep his appetite up. The vet now says he seems stable, and even though he has CRF, he could potentially stay at his current numbers for several years without the disease actually progressing. Once again, thank you so much for all your help. Best regards, ---Cindy S. Thanks for the update- I love to hear good news for a change! Phil |
#30
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Byproduicts, what are they? was Report on Alex for Phil -- Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast
cybercat wrote: The question is, why would anyone bother trying to feed cats and dogs to cats and dogs? Cheap source of protein. The bodies are disposed of, anyway, so if they can be sent to a rendering plant and that material used in dog food - voila - income for whomever is selling the bodies. For the manufactuer, it's gotta be cheaper than cow, pig and chicken guts. -L. |
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