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#21
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OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)
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#22
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OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)
"Will in New Haven" wrote in message ... On Aug 4, 4:11 pm, "CatNipped" wrote: "Will in New Haven" wrote in ... On Aug 4, 3:33 pm, Daniel Mahoney wrote: On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 14:15:23 -0500, CatNipped wrote: This case hits rather close to home and I was wondering if it were possible for us to discuss this rationally. I can sort of see both sides of the issue. I can too, kind of. I used to support the death penalty in cases of extreme wanton violence, and this would qualify. In recent years, though, I've come to rethink that and now believe that no human being has the right to determine the life or death of another. i'm not gung-ho in favor of the death penalty. In general, I'm against it. But I don't see two sides to this issue. I see two little girls. I don't think the state of Texas should execute this guy but I wouldn't lift a finger to help him. If someone killed him and I were on the jury, I would vote to acquit. =============================================== The two sides I see... on the one hand, fry the b*stard who so cruelly, and with no obvious regrets except that he got caught, raped and killed two little girls. On the other side - American citizens who may be affected if treaties are ignored because of this incident (not *any* bleeding heart feelings that he should be spared). Just his justifications for this horrific act... "I'm where I am because I made an adolescent choice. That's it! "My life is in black and white like old western movies," he wrote. "But unlike the movies, the good guys don't always finish first." ...are enough to make me want to put the injection in his arm myself. "Good guys???!" "GOOD GUYS????!!!!!!" Ohmydeargawd! I think they just executed him, by the way. Unless I misread the news. -- Will in New Haven Yes the did look below at my post and end to this discussion |
#23
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OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)
"Matthew" wrote in
ng.com: cations for this horrific act... "I'm where I am because I made an adolescent choice. That's it! .. .. .. Will in New Haven Yes the did look below at my post and end to this discussion I doubt following the treaty would have helped him much so they probably should have but what about this quote of his? wasn't he 18 y.o. if my math is right? Not what I would call adolescent. Does not show much remorse does it? |
#25
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OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)
outsider wrote: Lesley wrote in news:059172f9-5c54-4ad4-a025- : On Aug 4, 1:57 pm, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote: These were not "savages", but people who had adopted the White Man's ways, were educated in Eastern U.S. schools, and had become prosperous farmers and businessmen. (Since their territory included a good chunk of the Deep South, many had lavish plantations, and were slave-owners.) This is very strange..... A couple of days ago, Dave, me and Jim the Gardener were sitting in the local chatting and we were trying to remember the name of the tribe of Indians who adopted white man's ways to the extent that some of them were even slave owners only to still have their land taken away and to be moved to poorer land and none of us could remember their name....so today I glance down a thread on this list and there's the answer to the question that plagued the three of us all night (cue X-Files music) Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs You think no American Indian had slaves until the "white man" arrived. Do you also think no africans had slaves until the "white man" taught them? In the scheme of things the europeans were pretty late in the slavery game. And you do know that lots of africans sold lots of africans to white (and african) slave traders, right? I wont defend how the people who were here (in north america) were treated by the new arrivals but I don't like when people assume there was no evil until the white europeans came along (which I realize is not exactly what you said). I think you entirely missed the point of these posts! It wasn't the "American Indian" ownership of slaves (or the lack of it) that was under discussion, but the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT (under Andrew Jackson) breaking firm treaties made with the Cherokee Nation, and forcibly evicting them from ancestral lands our government had already ceded to them! (Because white settlers in Georgia coveted their rich farmland - and the gold-fields that had been discovered upon them.) I don't condone slavery (especially its modern-day economic equivalent), but even less do I condone a government breaking faith with law-abiding citizens who thought they were PROTECTED by that government! |
#26
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OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)
outsider wrote: "Matthew" wrote in ng.com: cations for this horrific act... "I'm where I am because I made an adolescent choice. That's it! . . . Will in New Haven Yes the did look below at my post and end to this discussion I doubt following the treaty would have helped him much so they probably should have but what about this quote of his? wasn't he 18 y.o. if my math is right? Not what I would call adolescent. Does not show much remorse does it? Huh? What "treaty" are you talking about? (Is your reading comprehension so poor you didn't realize part of this thread had gone off on a tangent, as they are often prone to do?) |
#27
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OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)
John F. Eldredge wrote: On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:40:56 +0000, outsider wrote: Lesley wrote in news:059172f9-5c54-4ad4-a025- : On Aug 4, 1:57 pm, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote: These were not "savages", but people who had adopted the White Man's ways, were educated in Eastern U.S. schools, and had become prosperous farmers and businessmen. (Since their territory included a good chunk of the Deep South, many had lavish plantations, and were slave-owners.) This is very strange..... A couple of days ago, Dave, me and Jim the Gardener were sitting in the local chatting and we were trying to remember the name of the tribe of Indians who adopted white man's ways to the extent that some of them were even slave owners only to still have their land taken away and to be moved to poorer land and none of us could remember their name....so today I glance down a thread on this list and there's the answer to the question that plagued the three of us all night (cue X-Files music) Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs You think no American Indian had slaves until the "white man" arrived. Do you also think no africans had slaves until the "white man" taught them? In the scheme of things the europeans were pretty late in the slavery game. And you do know that lots of africans sold lots of africans to white (and african) slave traders, right? I wont defend how the people who were here (in north america) were treated by the new arrivals but I don't like when people assume there was no evil until the white europeans came along (which I realize is not exactly what you said). Most cultures in the world have gone through a slave-holding phase (and some still practice it). Once people moved past hunting and gathering for food to practicing agriculture, it became an advantage to have laborers who did a larger percentage of the work but got a smaller percentage of the results of that work. For example, if you were on the losing side of a war, you had a good chance of ending up as a slave. Enslavement of someone who couldn't afford to pay off a debt was also common, or a family having to sell one of their children in order to have enough money to feed the rest. All true, but "outsider" missed the point of the posts which he/she was chiming in on - it dealt with our government breaking faith with the Cherokee Nation. (People who adopted the white-man's culture, trusting that their treaties with the U.S. government protected their ancestral lands from future seizure by white "have-nots"!) |
#28
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OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in
: outsider wrote: Lesley wrote in news:059172f9-5c54-4ad4-a025- : On Aug 4, 1:57 pm, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote: These were not "savages", but people who had adopted the White Man's ways, were educated in Eastern U.S. schools, and had become prosperous farmers and businessmen. (Since their territory included a good chunk of the Deep South, many had lavish plantations, and were slave-owners.) This is very strange..... A couple of days ago, Dave, me and Jim the Gardener were sitting in the local chatting and we were trying to remember the name of the tribe of Indians who adopted white man's ways to the extent that some of them were even slave owners only to still have their land taken away and to be moved to poorer land and none of us could remember their name....so today I glance down a thread on this list and there's the answer to the question that plagued the three of us all night (cue X-Files music) Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs You think no American Indian had slaves until the "white man" arrived. Do you also think no africans had slaves until the "white man" taught them? In the scheme of things the europeans were pretty late in the slavery game. And you do know that lots of africans sold lots of africans to white (and african) slave traders, right? I wont defend how the people who were here (in north america) were treated by the new arrivals but I don't like when people assume there was no evil until the white europeans came along (which I realize is not exactly what you said). I think you entirely missed the point of these posts! It wasn't the "American Indian" ownership of slaves (or the lack of it) that was under discussion, but the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT (under Andrew Jackson) breaking firm treaties made with the Cherokee Nation, and forcibly evicting them from ancestral lands our government had already ceded to them! (Because white settlers in Georgia coveted their rich farmland - and the gold-fields that had been discovered upon them.) I don't condone slavery (especially its modern-day economic equivalent), but even less do I condone a government breaking faith with law-abiding citizens who thought they were PROTECTED by that government! I missed nothing. Sometimes you address one point of a post and not the entire thing. You might even add at the end something like this "(which I realize is not exactly what you said)." |
#29
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OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in
: outsider wrote: "Matthew" wrote in ng.com: cations for this horrific act... "I'm where I am because I made an adolescent choice. That's it! . . . Will in New Haven Yes the did look below at my post and end to this discussion I doubt following the treaty would have helped him much so they probably should have but what about this quote of his? wasn't he 18 y.o. if my math is right? Not what I would call adolescent. Does not show much remorse does it? Huh? What "treaty" are you talking about? (Is your reading comprehension so poor you didn't realize part of this thread had gone off on a tangent, as they are often prone to do?) You're an idiot; do you know that? Please make this the last "thread police" post you direct my way. ok? |
#30
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OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in
: John F. Eldredge wrote: On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:40:56 +0000, outsider wrote: Lesley wrote in news:059172f9-5c54-4ad4-a025- : On Aug 4, 1:57 pm, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote: These were not "savages", but people who had adopted the White Man's ways, were educated in Eastern U.S. schools, and had become prosperous farmers and businessmen. (Since their territory included a good chunk of the Deep South, many had lavish plantations, and were slave-owners.) This is very strange..... A couple of days ago, Dave, me and Jim the Gardener were sitting in the local chatting and we were trying to remember the name of the tribe of Indians who adopted white man's ways to the extent that some of them were even slave owners only to still have their land taken away and to be moved to poorer land and none of us could remember their name....so today I glance down a thread on this list and there's the answer to the question that plagued the three of us all night (cue X-Files music) Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs You think no American Indian had slaves until the "white man" arrived. Do you also think no africans had slaves until the "white man" taught them? In the scheme of things the europeans were pretty late in the slavery game. And you do know that lots of africans sold lots of africans to white (and african) slave traders, right? I wont defend how the people who were here (in north america) were treated by the new arrivals but I don't like when people assume there was no evil until the white europeans came along (which I realize is not exactly what you said). Most cultures in the world have gone through a slave-holding phase (and some still practice it). Once people moved past hunting and gathering for food to practicing agriculture, it became an advantage to have laborers who did a larger percentage of the work but got a smaller percentage of the results of that work. For example, if you were on the losing side of a war, you had a good chance of ending up as a slave. Enslavement of someone who couldn't afford to pay off a debt was also common, or a family having to sell one of their children in order to have enough money to feed the rest. All true, but "outsider" missed the point of the posts which he/she was chiming in on - it dealt with our government breaking faith with the Cherokee Nation. (People who adopted the white-man's culture, trusting that their treaties with the U.S. government protected their ancestral lands from future seizure by white "have-nots"!) So John is ALSO stupid for understanding my comments and expanding on them? |
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