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OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 7th 08, 07:40 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Outsider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,760
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)

Lesley wrote in news:059172f9-5c54-4ad4-a025-
:

On Aug 4, 1:57*pm, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
wrote:
*These were not
"savages", but people who had adopted the White Man's ways, were
educated in Eastern U.S. schools, and had become prosperous farmers

and
businessmen. (Since their territory included a good chunk of the Deep
South, many had lavish plantations, and were slave-owners.)



This is very strange.....

A couple of days ago, Dave, me and Jim the Gardener were sitting in
the local chatting and we were trying to remember the name of the
tribe of Indians who adopted white man's ways to the extent that some
of them were even slave owners only to still have their land taken
away and to be moved to poorer land and none of us could remember
their name....so today I glance down a thread on this list and there's
the answer to the question that plagued the three of us all night

(cue X-Files music)

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs




You think no American Indian had slaves until the "white man" arrived.
Do you also think no africans had slaves until the "white man" taught
them? In the scheme of things the europeans were pretty late in the
slavery game. And you do know that lots of africans sold lots of
africans to white (and african) slave traders, right? I wont defend how
the people who were here (in north america) were treated by the new
arrivals but I don't like when people assume there was no evil until the
white europeans came along (which I realize is not exactly what you
said).
  #22  
Old August 7th 08, 08:02 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Matthew[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,287
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)


"Will in New Haven" wrote in message
...
On Aug 4, 4:11 pm, "CatNipped" wrote:
"Will in New Haven" wrote in
...
On Aug 4, 3:33 pm, Daniel Mahoney wrote:

On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 14:15:23 -0500, CatNipped wrote:
This case hits rather close to home and I was wondering if it were
possible
for us to discuss this rationally. I can sort of see both sides of the
issue.


I can too, kind of. I used to support the death penalty in cases of
extreme wanton violence, and this would qualify. In recent years,
though,
I've come to rethink that and now believe that no human being has the
right to determine the life or death of another.


i'm not gung-ho in favor of the death penalty. In general, I'm against
it. But I don't see two sides to this issue. I see two little girls. I
don't think the state of Texas should execute this guy but I wouldn't
lift a finger to help him. If someone killed him and I were on the
jury, I would vote to acquit.

===============================================

The two sides I see... on the one hand, fry the b*stard who so cruelly,
and
with no obvious regrets except that he got caught, raped and killed two
little girls. On the other side - American citizens who may be affected if
treaties are ignored because of this incident (not *any* bleeding heart
feelings that he should be spared).

Just his justifications for this horrific act...

"I'm where I am because I made an adolescent choice. That's it!

"My life is in black and white like old western movies," he wrote. "But
unlike the movies, the good guys don't always finish first."

...are enough to make me want to put the injection in his arm myself.
"Good
guys???!" "GOOD GUYS????!!!!!!" Ohmydeargawd!


I think they just executed him, by the way. Unless I misread the
news.

--
Will in New Haven


Yes the did look below at my post and end to this discussion


  #23  
Old August 7th 08, 10:35 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Outsider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,760
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)

"Matthew" wrote in
ng.com:

cations for this horrific act...

"I'm where I am because I made an adolescent choice. That's it!


..
..
..
Will in New Haven


Yes the did look below at my post and end to this discussion



I doubt following the treaty would have helped him much so they probably
should have but what about this quote of his? wasn't he 18 y.o. if my math
is right? Not what I would call adolescent. Does not show much remorse
does it?


  #24  
Old August 8th 08, 02:09 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
John F. Eldredge
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 976
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)

On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:40:56 +0000, outsider wrote:

Lesley wrote in news:059172f9-5c54-4ad4-a025-
:

On Aug 4, 1:57Â*pm, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
wrote:
Â*These were not
"savages", but people who had adopted the White Man's ways, were
educated in Eastern U.S. schools, and had become prosperous farmers

and
businessmen. (Since their territory included a good chunk of the Deep
South, many had lavish plantations, and were slave-owners.)



This is very strange.....

A couple of days ago, Dave, me and Jim the Gardener were sitting in the
local chatting and we were trying to remember the name of the tribe of
Indians who adopted white man's ways to the extent that some of them
were even slave owners only to still have their land taken away and to
be moved to poorer land and none of us could remember their name....so
today I glance down a thread on this list and there's the answer to the
question that plagued the three of us all night

(cue X-Files music)

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs




You think no American Indian had slaves until the "white man" arrived.
Do you also think no africans had slaves until the "white man" taught
them? In the scheme of things the europeans were pretty late in the
slavery game. And you do know that lots of africans sold lots of
africans to white (and african) slave traders, right? I wont defend how
the people who were here (in north america) were treated by the new
arrivals but I don't like when people assume there was no evil until the
white europeans came along (which I realize is not exactly what you
said).


Most cultures in the world have gone through a slave-holding phase (and
some still practice it). Once people moved past hunting and gathering
for food to practicing agriculture, it became an advantage to have
laborers who did a larger percentage of the work but got a smaller
percentage of the results of that work. For example, if you were on the
losing side of a war, you had a good chance of ending up as a slave.
Enslavement of someone who couldn't afford to pay off a debt was also
common, or a family having to sell one of their children in order to have
enough money to feed the rest.

--
John F. Eldredge --

PGP key available from
http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
  #25  
Old August 8th 08, 11:08 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,800
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)



outsider wrote:
Lesley wrote in news:059172f9-5c54-4ad4-a025-
:

On Aug 4, 1:57 pm, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
wrote:
These were not
"savages", but people who had adopted the White Man's ways, were
educated in Eastern U.S. schools, and had become prosperous farmers

and
businessmen. (Since their territory included a good chunk of the Deep
South, many had lavish plantations, and were slave-owners.)


This is very strange.....

A couple of days ago, Dave, me and Jim the Gardener were sitting in
the local chatting and we were trying to remember the name of the
tribe of Indians who adopted white man's ways to the extent that some
of them were even slave owners only to still have their land taken
away and to be moved to poorer land and none of us could remember
their name....so today I glance down a thread on this list and there's
the answer to the question that plagued the three of us all night

(cue X-Files music)

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs




You think no American Indian had slaves until the "white man" arrived.
Do you also think no africans had slaves until the "white man" taught
them? In the scheme of things the europeans were pretty late in the
slavery game. And you do know that lots of africans sold lots of
africans to white (and african) slave traders, right? I wont defend how
the people who were here (in north america) were treated by the new
arrivals but I don't like when people assume there was no evil until the
white europeans came along (which I realize is not exactly what you
said).


I think you entirely missed the point of these posts! It wasn't the
"American Indian" ownership of slaves (or the lack of it) that was under
discussion, but the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT (under Andrew Jackson) breaking
firm treaties made with the Cherokee Nation, and forcibly evicting them
from ancestral lands our government had already ceded to them! (Because
white settlers in Georgia coveted their rich farmland - and the
gold-fields that had been discovered upon them.) I don't condone
slavery (especially its modern-day economic equivalent), but even less
do I condone a government breaking faith with law-abiding citizens who
thought they were PROTECTED by that government!
  #26  
Old August 8th 08, 11:10 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,800
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)



outsider wrote:
"Matthew" wrote in
ng.com:

cations for this horrific act...
"I'm where I am because I made an adolescent choice. That's it!

.
.
.
Will in New Haven


Yes the did look below at my post and end to this discussion



I doubt following the treaty would have helped him much so they probably
should have but what about this quote of his? wasn't he 18 y.o. if my math
is right? Not what I would call adolescent. Does not show much remorse
does it?


Huh? What "treaty" are you talking about? (Is your reading
comprehension so poor you didn't realize part of this thread had gone
off on a tangent, as they are often prone to do?)
  #27  
Old August 8th 08, 11:17 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,800
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)



John F. Eldredge wrote:
On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:40:56 +0000, outsider wrote:

Lesley wrote in news:059172f9-5c54-4ad4-a025-
:

On Aug 4, 1:57 pm, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
wrote:
These were not
"savages", but people who had adopted the White Man's ways, were
educated in Eastern U.S. schools, and had become prosperous farmers

and
businessmen. (Since their territory included a good chunk of the Deep
South, many had lavish plantations, and were slave-owners.)


This is very strange.....

A couple of days ago, Dave, me and Jim the Gardener were sitting in the
local chatting and we were trying to remember the name of the tribe of
Indians who adopted white man's ways to the extent that some of them
were even slave owners only to still have their land taken away and to
be moved to poorer land and none of us could remember their name....so
today I glance down a thread on this list and there's the answer to the
question that plagued the three of us all night

(cue X-Files music)

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs



You think no American Indian had slaves until the "white man" arrived.
Do you also think no africans had slaves until the "white man" taught
them? In the scheme of things the europeans were pretty late in the
slavery game. And you do know that lots of africans sold lots of
africans to white (and african) slave traders, right? I wont defend how
the people who were here (in north america) were treated by the new
arrivals but I don't like when people assume there was no evil until the
white europeans came along (which I realize is not exactly what you
said).


Most cultures in the world have gone through a slave-holding phase (and
some still practice it). Once people moved past hunting and gathering
for food to practicing agriculture, it became an advantage to have
laborers who did a larger percentage of the work but got a smaller
percentage of the results of that work. For example, if you were on the
losing side of a war, you had a good chance of ending up as a slave.
Enslavement of someone who couldn't afford to pay off a debt was also
common, or a family having to sell one of their children in order to have
enough money to feed the rest.


All true, but "outsider" missed the point of the posts which he/she was
chiming in on - it dealt with our government breaking faith with the
Cherokee Nation. (People who adopted the white-man's culture, trusting
that their treaties with the U.S. government protected their ancestral
lands from future seizure by white "have-nots"!)
  #28  
Old August 8th 08, 11:35 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Outsider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,760
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in
:



outsider wrote:
Lesley wrote in news:059172f9-5c54-4ad4-a025-
:

On Aug 4, 1:57 pm, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
wrote:
These were not
"savages", but people who had adopted the White Man's ways, were
educated in Eastern U.S. schools, and had become prosperous farmers

and
businessmen. (Since their territory included a good chunk of the
Deep South, many had lavish plantations, and were slave-owners.)


This is very strange.....

A couple of days ago, Dave, me and Jim the Gardener were sitting in
the local chatting and we were trying to remember the name of the
tribe of Indians who adopted white man's ways to the extent that
some of them were even slave owners only to still have their land
taken away and to be moved to poorer land and none of us could
remember their name....so today I glance down a thread on this list
and there's the answer to the question that plagued the three of us
all night

(cue X-Files music)

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs




You think no American Indian had slaves until the "white man"
arrived. Do you also think no africans had slaves until the "white
man" taught them? In the scheme of things the europeans were pretty
late in the slavery game. And you do know that lots of africans sold
lots of africans to white (and african) slave traders, right? I wont
defend how the people who were here (in north america) were treated
by the new arrivals but I don't like when people assume there was no
evil until the white europeans came along (which I realize is not
exactly what you said).


I think you entirely missed the point of these posts! It wasn't the
"American Indian" ownership of slaves (or the lack of it) that was
under discussion, but the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT (under Andrew Jackson)
breaking firm treaties made with the Cherokee Nation, and forcibly
evicting them from ancestral lands our government had already ceded to
them! (Because white settlers in Georgia coveted their rich farmland
- and the gold-fields that had been discovered upon them.) I don't
condone slavery (especially its modern-day economic equivalent), but
even less do I condone a government breaking faith with law-abiding
citizens who thought they were PROTECTED by that government!



I missed nothing. Sometimes you address one point of a post and not the
entire thing. You might even add at the end something like this

"(which I realize is not exactly what you said)."



  #29  
Old August 8th 08, 11:41 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Outsider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,760
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in
:



outsider wrote:
"Matthew" wrote in
ng.com:

cations for this horrific act...
"I'm where I am because I made an adolescent choice. That's it!

.
.
.
Will in New Haven


Yes the did look below at my post and end to this discussion



I doubt following the treaty would have helped him much so they
probably should have but what about this quote of his? wasn't he 18
y.o. if my math is right? Not what I would call adolescent. Does
not show much remorse does it?


Huh? What "treaty" are you talking about? (Is your reading
comprehension so poor you didn't realize part of this thread had gone
off on a tangent, as they are often prone to do?)



You're an idiot; do you know that? Please make this the last "thread
police" post you direct my way. ok?





  #30  
Old August 8th 08, 11:44 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Outsider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,760
Default OT - WARNING POLITICAL & AW (Human)

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in
:



John F. Eldredge wrote:
On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:40:56 +0000, outsider wrote:

Lesley wrote in news:059172f9-5c54-4ad4-a025-
:

On Aug 4, 1:57 pm, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
wrote:
These were not
"savages", but people who had adopted the White Man's ways, were
educated in Eastern U.S. schools, and had become prosperous
farmers
and
businessmen. (Since their territory included a good chunk of the
Deep South, many had lavish plantations, and were slave-owners.)


This is very strange.....

A couple of days ago, Dave, me and Jim the Gardener were sitting in
the local chatting and we were trying to remember the name of the
tribe of Indians who adopted white man's ways to the extent that
some of them were even slave owners only to still have their land
taken away and to be moved to poorer land and none of us could
remember their name....so today I glance down a thread on this list
and there's the answer to the question that plagued the three of us
all night

(cue X-Files music)

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs


You think no American Indian had slaves until the "white man"
arrived. Do you also think no africans had slaves until the "white
man" taught them? In the scheme of things the europeans were pretty
late in the slavery game. And you do know that lots of africans
sold lots of africans to white (and african) slave traders, right?
I wont defend how the people who were here (in north america) were
treated by the new arrivals but I don't like when people assume
there was no evil until the white europeans came along (which I
realize is not exactly what you said).


Most cultures in the world have gone through a slave-holding phase
(and some still practice it). Once people moved past hunting and
gathering for food to practicing agriculture, it became an advantage
to have laborers who did a larger percentage of the work but got a
smaller percentage of the results of that work. For example, if you
were on the losing side of a war, you had a good chance of ending up
as a slave. Enslavement of someone who couldn't afford to pay off a
debt was also common, or a family having to sell one of their
children in order to have enough money to feed the rest.


All true, but "outsider" missed the point of the posts which he/she
was chiming in on - it dealt with our government breaking faith with
the Cherokee Nation. (People who adopted the white-man's culture,
trusting that their treaties with the U.S. government protected their
ancestral lands from future seizure by white "have-nots"!)




So John is ALSO stupid for understanding my comments and expanding on
them?
 




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