BENGAL cats

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 20:51:55 GMT, "Philip"
wrote:

Recall my stated purpose for visiting this forum. To solicit information
about Bengal cats and to a lesser extent Ocicats. It was never my stated
purpose to invite public debate about the merits of purebreds vs. moggies,
shelter vs. breeder. Some of the ladies here are overrun by their emotions
while a couple are governed by good sense. The killfile is being populated
with the former.

Yes, your purpose in visiting this forum was to get information, but
you have also looked at hundreds of shelter cats, which suggests you
want a cat of your own. Why are you having such a hard time finding
the right one?

Charlie

Good for you. Not many people will take on a problem cat. Bless
those
who do. I sure won't.

Never say never - lol. You may get sent one in time. We don't always
choose these things - sometimes they just come along if your heart is
open. Hey, brunette men are my "type". But I fell passionately in love
with two pale Nordic blondes (one of whom is sitting right next to me).
We don't always "choose" what comes into our life.

That's the telling statement, there. You wouldn't have volunteered -
nor would I, nor would most people.

Yep. Given a choice, we'd probably all pick the path of least
resistance. Human nature. The amazing thing is that most of the richest
experiences we have come from the times we (often with great
ambivalence) don't pick the easiest and most obvious option.

What's the benefit (to cats in general) when healthy, non-problem
cats
die by the thousands? Really?

I have a healthy non-problem cat. Two of them. "Problem cat" is not
necessarily a permanent category - she was frightened and scared,
that's all. You act as if there are two kinds of animals, good ones and
bad ones. They were all healthy non-problem cats at one time, but bad
things happened - almost always because of the carelessness and
irresponsibility of my human species. To me, there's a fairly
significant karma wheel in righting just one of those horrible
mistakes. I can't stop people from treating cats like disposable
garbage, but if can make it up to one of them, then that's a good
thing.

Benefit to one cat - so what - other
cats die.

Yep. And I reversed which one it was likely to be. And nothing makes me
happier than to beat the odds for at least one little creature. If I
didn't believe that was possible, however infrequently, then I wouldn't
believe in hope. Rooting for the underdog runs deep in my makeup.

To make yourself feel better? Go ahead - knock yourself
out.

Nah. I got a great cat out of it. Totally selfish. That little thing
follows me around like non-problem cat (wonderful as she is) will NEVER
do. She knows I saved her cookies and thinks I am the most wonderful
human the world has ever seen. Ya can't buy that :

Yeah, you saved a cat. Admirable as it is (and it is admirable),
it doesn't make any difference to the cat population whether it's a
pee-er, biter, healthy or whatever - one cat is one cat. Why make it
harder on yourself by adopting a challenge when healthy cats die
anyway?

Because I was willing and I was able. And like I said, if you give a
damn at all, you should do the best that you can. Effort and going the
extra mile
(to beat a cliche to death) are the antidote to selfishness and self
centeredness. It's how we make the world a better place, in the little
microcosmic ways that we can. We all have to figure out what we can do
to help. You bend down to give a homeless guy a quarter, you try not to
work for the despoilers of the earth, you attempt to treat other people
with respect, you love your family and do your best for them even when
they drive you nuts, you volunteer for worthy causes ... whatever. You
do what you can to right a wrong when you see one. It all makes your
individual life harder, but you do it anyway.

If you like a hard case, I suppose it might be attractive.
But I think by and large people who put themselves up on the pedastal
for taking the hard cases do it for *themselves*. It makes
themselves
feel better. Honestly, I couldn't care less - I just want you to
take
*a* cat - doesn't matter which one.

And that condemns the older ones, the ugly ones, the charmless ones ,
the sick ones, the frightened ones, the abandoned ones. Are they
worthless? They didn't start out that way. They were cute kittens just
like the rest of them, but they fell into bad situations and were
*unlucky* enough to survive as "hard cases". Characterizing feeling for
them as self-glorification is pretty nasty stuff. Is empathy too
difficult a concept?

And I really have to question the
logic/mental stability of someone who willingly takes in a cat that
pees all over the house because of behavioral issues. Who wants to
live in cat ****? I sure don't.

Thanks, but my mental stability is fine. She doesn't and didn't pee all
over the house. She missed the litterbox a few times when she got
startled. Eventually she realized she was safe here, for the first time
in her entire life, and now she loves her litterbox and is probably the
most fastidious little kitty on earth. And ya know, when my husband
gets sick and vomits,
(which happened a few months ago), I didn't kick him out of the house
either. I cleaned it up. He leaves the tube off the toothpaste and
towels on the floor sometimes, too, but he's still here :

It's called living with others. There ain't no perfect humans and there
ain't no perfect cats. We gotta love one another despite the flaws.

"The best you can" *to you* means adopting a hard case. Fine.
Lovely.
I commend you. Really. "The best you can" for other people means
different things.

Sure. It depends on circumstances. But so often we don't do the best we
can do, even when it is possible, because we love doing the easy thing,
like buying a purebred kitten we are assured will meet all of our
physical, temperamental and behavioral requirements. Like any living
thing can or should be held to arbitrary standards and there is such a
thing as a totally predictable cat. Seems easier, often doesn't turn
out that way, and is a rejection of the opportunity to do something
better.

Personally I don't care if someone takes a biter, a
pee-er, a healthy cat, a kitten or what - as long as they take if
from
a kill shelter. To me, that's doing "the best you can", for *anyone*
wanting a cat. X number of cats are slated to die. If given a
choice,
I have no problem seeing a healthy cat live and a problem cat die.
So
shoot me. Why make life harder on yourself than it needs to be?

Problem cats *are* healthy cats, given a chance. I know you want to
believe that the problem cats are *different*, but they're not. It's
just a rationalization. And yeah,. being around mass euthanasia would
make anyone rationalize. It's pretty unbearable any other way. .

Well, I did and it's the best thing I have ever done.

OK. Did you do it to "make yourself feel better?". That may be a
benefit, but I doubt it was your primary motivation. There are easier
ways to get an adrenaline rush. So why characterize others in such
belittling terms when you know it isn't so?

What do you mean by "life of one cat is
just as important as the lives of many"?

I am saying that one cat matters just as much as many do. For example,
someone that wants a purebred and justifies it by saying that if they
went to a shelter it would only save one cat so what difference does it
make anyway. IT certainly makes a dfference to that cat that isn't
adopted and is killed. Or Kelly's saving a cat yet saying it's "just one
life" as though it doesn't mean as much.
It DOES mean as much, whether one cat or one hundred are saved. And it
especially matters to the cat being saved.

Until there are none, rescue one.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

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"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
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splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

wrote:

Never say never - lol. You may get sent one in time. We don't always
choose these things - sometimes they just come along if your heart is
open. Hey, brunette men are my "type". But I fell passionately in
love
with two pale Nordic blondes (one of whom is sitting right next to
me).
We don't always "choose" what comes into our life.

Yes, you're right. But we are talking about choosing between a cat
that has known health and medical issues versus one that does not, no?
We are talking about a very specific situation.



Yep. Given a choice, we'd probably all pick the path of least
resistance. Human nature. The amazing thing is that most of the
richest
experiences we have come from the times we (often with great
ambivalence) don't pick the easiest and most obvious option.


LOL...well, that goes without saying. But I get my zen in large enough
doses as it is, heh...



I have a healthy non-problem cat. Two of them. "Problem cat" is not
necessarily a permanent category - she was frightened and scared,
that's all. You act as if there are two kinds of animals, good ones
and
bad ones.


Not "bad" but "complicated". When choosing a cat, there *are* two
choices that we are discussing here - difficult case vs. easy case -
both with regard to medical or behavioral issues.

That doesn't mean difficult case won't turn around - often times, they
do.


They were all healthy non-problem cats at one time, but bad
things happened - almost always because of the carelessness and
irresponsibility of my human species. To me, there's a fairly
significant karma wheel in righting just one of those horrible
mistakes. I can't stop people from treating cats like disposable
garbage, but if can make it up to one of them, then that's a good
thing.

Yes, I agree. But my argument is that yes, it betters the cat, yes, it
makes you feel good, but in the grand scheme of things, it matters not
if the "challenging" cat gets chosen or the "non-challenging" cat gets
chosen - as long as *a cat* gets chosen. I just don't see any benefit
to choosing the challenge when either is going to die. Especailly when
the challenging cat is *more likely* to be returned to the shelter.



Yep. And I reversed which one it was likely to be. And nothing makes
me
happier than to beat the odds for at least one little creature. If I
didn't believe that was possible, however infrequently, then I
wouldn't
believe in hope. Rooting for the underdog runs deep in my makeup.

As it does in mine. I just don't think that *everyone* needs to feel
that way, and don't think less of people who don't.


Nah. I got a great cat out of it. Totally selfish. That little thing
follows me around like non-problem cat (wonderful as she is) will
NEVER
do. She knows I saved her cookies and thinks I am the most wonderful
human the world has ever seen. Ya can't buy that :

Well, that's true. My old dog Tosh was like that as well - a foundling
rescued from the cold streets of Winter.



Because I was willing and I was able. And like I said, if you give a
damn at all, you should do the best that you can. Effort and going
the
extra mile
(to beat a cliche to death) are the antidote to selfishness and self
centeredness. It's how we make the world a better place, in the
little
microcosmic ways that we can. We all have to figure out what we can
do
to help. You bend down to give a homeless guy a quarter, you try not
to
work for the despoilers of the earth, you attempt to treat other
people
with respect, you love your family and do your best for them even
when
they drive you nuts, you volunteer for worthy causes ... whatever.
You
do what you can to right a wrong when you see one. It all makes your
individual life harder, but you do it anyway.


I agree - quite a bit, actually. The giver still is getting the "feel
good" vibe from it all. It isn't all altruism. But we are talking
about a very specific situation. You see the health/behavior
"challenging" cat as more worthy; I see it as less worthy. In the end,
a cat is saved. I don't think it really matters which one.



And that condemns the older ones, the ugly ones, the charmless ones ,
the sick ones, the frightened ones, the abandoned ones.


Um, no. We are talking about those with *medical issues* and/or
*behavioral issues*. At least that *all* I am talking about. I'm
sorry if I gave the impression, otherwise.


Are they
worthless? They didn't start out that way. They were cute kittens
just
like the rest of them, but they fell into bad situations and were
*unlucky* enough to survive as "hard cases".


Sure. But they also take more time, energy, money and patience than a
healthy cat. Those are things not easily come by for some people. And
even if they *could* take one on, I don't condemn them for *not* - as
long as *a* cat is saved. I don't care which one.



Characterizing feeling for
them as self-glorification is pretty nasty stuff. Is empathy too
difficult a concept?


Of course not. But I also don't see any benefit to causing yourself
grief when there is no need to. X number of cats are going to die. I
cannot condemn a healthy, tame cat to die when a sick, unfriendly one
will live in its place. I just can't. It doesn't make sense to me,
from a moral/ethical stand point.



And I really have to question the
logic/mental stability of someone who willingly takes in a cat that
pees all over the house because of behavioral issues. Who wants to
live in cat ****? I sure don't.

Thanks, but my mental stability is fine.


I didn't mean that personally - I don't know the situation of your
specific cat. I meant in general terms. I can't imagine willingly
bringing an animal into my home that I know will pee inappropriately,
when one that won't is sitting in a cage next to it, both slated for
euthanasia.


She doesn't and didn't pee all
over the house. She missed the litterbox a few times when she got
startled. Eventually she realized she was safe here, for the first
time
in her entire life, and now she loves her litterbox and is probably
the
most fastidious little kitty on earth. And ya know, when my husband
gets sick and vomits,
(which happened a few months ago), I didn't kick him out of the house
either. I cleaned it up. He leaves the tube off the toothpaste and
towels on the floor sometimes, too, but he's still here :

I'm sure he loves being equated with a cat. IMO, that's disrespectful,
but you're entitled to equate him with whatever you want - he's yours.



It's called living with others. There ain't no perfect humans and
there
ain't no perfect cats. We gotta love one another despite the flaws.

Since you like human anologies - Would you choose to marry an alcoholic
just because he's a "hard case" or an "underdog"? Many women do, and
would argue that you need to "help those less fortunate". I don't get
the logic, personally.


Sure. It depends on circumstances. But so often we don't do the best
we
can do, even when it is possible, because we love doing the easy
thing,
like buying a purebred kitten we are assured will meet all of our
physical, temperamental and behavioral requirements. Like any living
thing can or should be held to arbitrary standards and there is such
a
thing as a totally predictable cat. Seems easier, often doesn't turn
out that way, and is a rejection of the opportunity to do something
better.


IMO, far too many people make the "easy" choice far too often. But
it's their's to make. I may not like it. I may bitch at them about it
and protest against it. But in the end, it's their Karma, not mine.
And I don't know everyone's circumstances, afterall.

Problem cats *are* healthy cats, given a chance.

Some are, some aren't. Some die shortly after adoption, some run away,
and some get returned to the shelter - and when we are talking about
health and/or behavioral issues - the "problem" cat is *MORE LIKELY* to
do any one of those three things.

So what good does it do, in those cases, to have adopted them instead
of a healthy cat? A perfectly healthy cat died, and the "problem" cat
is dead, gone, or back at the shelter. It's a lose-lose situation


I know you want to
believe that the problem cats are *different*, but they're not.

Sure they are. They take more time, energy and money. That's why they
are the first to be euthed when the decision has to be made.

It's
just a rationalization. And yeah,. being around mass euthanasia would
make anyone rationalize. It's pretty unbearable any other way.

You have to make the decision some way. How do you think the decisions
should be made, if you don't believe in culling the "sick" (for lack of
a better word)? It's not just rationalization - it's being practical.



OK. Did you do it to "make yourself feel better?".

Sure. I wanted to be a parent. That's a pretty selfish act.

That may be a
benefit, but I doubt it was your primary motivation. There are easier
ways to get an adrenaline rush.

None better. Of course it wasn't my only motivation.


So why characterize others in such
belittling terms when you know it isn't so?

I didn't mean to be belittling - just calling it like I see it. I
don't believe true altruism exists. I'm sorry if you took my comments
personally - it was not intended to be so.

And FWIW, I *do* appreciate those who are willing to take on the
underdog cats. They are Angels, in my book. I just hate it that *any*
cats have to die.

-L.

wrote:
I am saying that one cat matters just as much as many do. For
example,
someone that wants a purebred and justifies it by saying that if they
went to a shelter it would only save one cat so what difference does
it
make anyway. IT certainly makes a dfference to that cat that isn't
adopted and is killed. Or Kelly's saving a cat yet saying it's "just
one
life" as though it doesn't mean as much.
It DOES mean as much, whether one cat or one hundred are saved. And
it
especially matters to the cat being saved.

Until there are none, rescue one.

Megan

Oh, ITA. I just didn't understand, the way you worded it.

-L.

In article .net, 1chip-
enlightened us with...


I was just playing. Despite our differences, at least you do
not support breeders.

Sounds like a gay thing.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.
*ahem*

--
--
~kaeli~
Dancing cheek-to-cheek is really a form of floor play.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

"Philip" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Catnipped wrote:
"Philip" wrote in message
link.net...
CatNipped wrote:
"Philip" wrote in message
link.net...
CatNipped wrote:
"Mary" wrote in message
...

"CatNipped" wrote
ALL completely irrelevent. The scenario was a values test and
you failed. Thank God you were spared this scenario in real
life.

ROTFLMAOWTIME! Oh, woe is me! Thank you Philip, er, I mean
God, for sparing me this scenario - of *course* I accept your
judgment of me (after
all I'm brain damaged, why wouldn't I?)! LOL!


Psst .... Lori!


over here

--------------------- Phillip the Dickless is trolling you.

Oh, I know, I'm just having so much fun laughing at his attempts
that I'm playing along until I get tired of it. ;

Hugs,

CatNipped

This thread of late is the most attention anybody has paid to you
in a very long time ... and you're lapping it up with gusto.
You're desparate for attention ... of any kind.

I am, I really am, please give me more, come on big man, give it to
me, give it to me (bet you haven't heard that in a long time - if
ever)! LOL

I hear it often from the wife. It's always in reference to larger
dollar denominations from my wallet.

ROTFLMAO! OK, good one!

Now ask if she get it.

Oh, being your wife, I seriously doubt she ever gets it! LOL

"Philip" wrote in message
ink.net...


I agree. And to just make clear the hypocrisy of the 'eccentrics' here,
did any of you female 'eccentrics' marry your husband with or because of
known congenital birth defects? I really doubt it.

Yes, asshole, I actually did. My husband has spina biffida occulta. But,
unlike you, I don't base love, respect, friendship, or anything else based
on a person's or animal's "defects".

You really are sad, and far to typical of what's wrong with the world these
days - at your age I would have thought you'd been reared with better
values - wrong for a third time, I see.

In article ,
enlightened us with...
Orchid, I know for a fact that breeders of both cats and dogs
DO kill babies with undesirable traits. I did not say that all do--
and you certainly cannot say that *none* do.


Why would they?
Responsible breeders care about their animals, so they wouldn't just cull
like this. They alter the animal and sell it as a pet.
BYB are out to make a buck, so they don't give a damn if the animal conforms
to standards. They sell anything. They are known to kill adults once they're
too old or sick to breed, but you specified babies.

Culling is hardly ever done any more from what I've heard by talking to real
breeders (that is, they show their animals and love their breed), and when it
IS done, it's because the poor animal had a serious defect that rendered it
unacceptable as even a pet.

Who has told you that they cull their animals? If you propose it as FACT then
you must be able to provide proof. And was it recently? It used to be common
in dog breeders -- 30 years ago.

Again, I'm mostly talking about cat breeders, either of the BYB or show
variety. People who breed racing hounds, sledding dogs, and fighting dogs
still can, and do, cull. But since that's a dog issue, I consider it pretty
irrelevant to the topic of buying a purebred cat.

--
--
~kaeli~
Dancing cheek-to-cheek is really a form of floor play.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

"-L." wrote in message
oups.com...

kaeli wrote:

I won't take in a cat that ****es and ****s in the floor or bites
people,
either. And I don't want a genetic freak cat with health problems if
I can
help it.

Well, neither do I, and quite frankly, how many people do? I suspect
all of the bellowers who are giving Phillip a hard time didn't adopt
known pee-ers, poopers or biters, either.

Wrong again. Man, you're really making a career of this aren't you Lyn?

And again, honestly, why
should anyone?

Maybe because these cats need a loving home just as much, if not *more* than
perfectly healthy cats and kittens that don't have problems getting adopted.
But then, you'd have to *have* a heart to discern that fact.

There are perfectly healthy cats and kittens without
behavioral problems being killed daily for lack of homes. Kudos to the
people who do want to take that on - I'm not one of them, nor are most
people.

Thank gawd!

-L.