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I Question Something about Best Friends... need to ask our Aussie friends



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 23rd 08, 10:25 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
jmcquown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,482
Default I Question Something about Best Friends... need to ask our Aussie friends

I read an article in 'Best Friends' magazine (the cat rescue organization in
the U.S., with whom I've sponsored two animals) about how people in
Australia generally consider cats as nuisances, not good pets and "not
friendly".

Knowing we have a number of cat-loving Australians here in rpca, I really
have to question what I was reading. Is it true the shelters (and the
government in general) doesn't believe in shelters neutering/spaying or
spay/neuter programs vs. euthanizing cats?

Not criticizing what 'Best Friends' said, but they stated that when
Australia was being colonized the cats were accepted as rat catchers on
ships that brought people (many British convicts) over the cats were
accepted. But once the cats were turned loose at the docks of Sydney they
started killing local wildlife. And they didn't mention birds, no, not at
all. They (via someone in Australian authority) mentioned they were killing
wallabees and koala bears.

I may be incredibly ignorant, but I fail to see how a "domestic" sized cat
could kill a wallaby. Or even a koala bear, which may appear to be gentle
but which have very large sharp claws. They aren't cuddly bears.

Are they publishing the truth or is it just so much guff to try to stir
people up because cats need to get more recognition as pets in Australia?

Jill


  #2  
Old January 23rd 08, 10:58 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Yowie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,225
Default I Question Something about Best Friends... need to ask our Aussie friends

"jmcquown" wrote in message
...
I read an article in 'Best Friends' magazine (the cat rescue organization
in
the U.S., with whom I've sponsored two animals) about how people in
Australia generally consider cats as nuisances, not good pets and "not
friendly".

Knowing we have a number of cat-loving Australians here in rpca, I really
have to question what I was reading. Is it true the shelters (and the
government in general) doesn't believe in shelters neutering/spaying or
spay/neuter programs vs. euthanizing cats?

Not criticizing what 'Best Friends' said, but they stated that when
Australia was being colonized the cats were accepted as rat catchers on
ships that brought people (many British convicts) over the cats were
accepted. But once the cats were turned loose at the docks of Sydney they
started killing local wildlife. And they didn't mention birds, no, not at
all. They (via someone in Australian authority) mentioned they were
killing
wallabees and koala bears.

I may be incredibly ignorant, but I fail to see how a "domestic" sized cat
could kill a wallaby. Or even a koala bear, which may appear to be gentle
but which have very large sharp claws. They aren't cuddly bears.


But are generally slow and dopey, with woeful eyesight. A cat would have no
trouble sneaking up on one. Perhaps the cat wouldn't kill an adult directly,
but the adult koala would sustain injuries that would lead to its death. The
cat would easily kill a baby or juvenile koala - and what would happen to a
baby koala if its mother was injured or killed by a cat? It would die too.
Ditto with wallabies (the smallest wallaby, btw, is the size of a mouse)


Are they publishing the truth or is it just so much guff to try to stir
people up because cats need to get more recognition as pets in Australia?


Its probably a little of both.

There is no native equivalent of the domestic cat in Australia. Domestic
cats eveolved in a far more competitave ecology, one that was filled with
relatively small, fast moving, prolifically breeding prey with an
insitinctual reaction to a cat - run and hide!

The same cannot be said for our native fauna. Similarly sized native fauna,
and the young of larger fauna are in comparison, slow, stupid, have no idea
what to do in the face of a cat, and don't breen prolifically - maybe only
one or two youung per year as opposed to the 'millions' such things as
rabbits and mice make. Whilst the cats introduced into Australia were
origianlly to keep the rat & mouse population down (which were also
intorduced to Australia) the cats - not being stupid - quickly found easier
prey to catch. Native mice, native marsupials (we don't have native mammals
bar the dingo), and of course, young koalas, young wallabies etc etc (and
koalas and some wallabies really aren't that big - size of a hare or
thereabouts). Cats catch native birds, too, but the ground animals are much
easier prey than birds (which by and large are quite smart compared to the
marsupials)

We also don't have anythign that would prey on the domestic cat.

So we have a huge problem.

Not only that, the cats out there in the bush are generally not 'domestic',
they've gone generationally feral. Through natural selection, Australia has
two type sof 'domestic' cat - the house cat, and the 'bush' cat. The hosue
cat is still the same size and temperament of house cats around the world,
the 'bush' cat is significantly bigger, smarter and far far meaner. The
'bush' cat could not be re-domesticated much like a bobtail could not be
domesticated, they are *wild*.

The problem here in Australia with catch, neuter, release is twofold. First,
we're a big country with sod all population for the most part. You'd have to
pay someone to drive a day to go inland to the scrubland, set traps, stay
overnight somwhere that doens't have accomodation, then drive a day back.
After a week, you'd have to do the same thing to collect the cats that were
trapped. You'd have to have a small army doing this to make any difference
at all, and no-one has the funding for that.

Teh other problem is that even a neutered 'bush' cat can continue to
decimate the native fauna for many years to come, and continue to pass
disease onto the animals (domesticated and otherwise) it meets, even if its
not making more bush cats.

The bush cats need an eradication program, and no eradication program is
'pretty'. Please do not think of these 'bush' cats as potential pets - they
aren't. They are like bob cats or small lynxes that have had a population
explosion.

But Australians also need to change their attitude towards domestic house
cats, and they slowly are. Now both cats & dogs are required to be registed
by most councils (county areas). And its alot more expensive to register an
unneutered animal. Australians also need to know the impact even their
little neutered housecat can have on the native wildlife in suburbia, and
think very long and hard about letting said cat out between dusk & dawn,
when most cats do their hunting.

New Zealand, for the same reasons of unique ecology, has a similar problem.
The domestic cat has directly caused the extinction of a bird that laid its
nest on the beach. The kiwi - a flightless bird - is under threat. The story
of the domestic cat in these two countries shows just how the 'circle of
life' is actually a delicate balance, once that can easily go disasterously
wrong when a species that did not evelve int hat circle is introduced. (The
cane toad is another disaster story, and is pretty much exactly the same as
the cat problem).

Yowie



  #3  
Old January 24th 08, 12:38 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,349
Default I Question Something about Best Friends... need to ask our Aussie friends

Yowie wrote:

There is no native equivalent of the domestic cat in Australia...


[snip lots of fascinating stuff]

Not only that, the cats out there in the bush are generally not 'domestic',
they've gone generationally feral. Through natural selection, Australia has
two type sof 'domestic' cat - the house cat, and the 'bush' cat. The hosue
cat is still the same size and temperament of house cats around the world,
the 'bush' cat is significantly bigger, smarter and far far meaner. The
'bush' cat could not be re-domesticated much like a bobtail could not be
domesticated, they are *wild*.


Wow, are you saying that the bush cat has evolved from the original
domestic cat brought by ships to Australia, into a different species of
feline? I didn't know about this. Are they really a separate species?
Could the bush cat procreate with a house cat? (Not asking if anyone
would *want* this to happen, just wondering whether it's physically
possible.)

Joyce
--
To send email to this address, remove the triple-X from my user name.
  #4  
Old January 24th 08, 12:54 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Joy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,086
Default I Question Something about Best Friends... need to ask our Aussie friends

"Yowie" wrote in message
...
"jmcquown" wrote in message
...
I read an article in 'Best Friends' magazine (the cat rescue organization
in
the U.S., with whom I've sponsored two animals) about how people in
Australia generally consider cats as nuisances, not good pets and "not
friendly".

Knowing we have a number of cat-loving Australians here in rpca, I really
have to question what I was reading. Is it true the shelters (and the
government in general) doesn't believe in shelters neutering/spaying or
spay/neuter programs vs. euthanizing cats?

Not criticizing what 'Best Friends' said, but they stated that when
Australia was being colonized the cats were accepted as rat catchers on
ships that brought people (many British convicts) over the cats were
accepted. But once the cats were turned loose at the docks of Sydney
they
started killing local wildlife. And they didn't mention birds, no, not
at
all. They (via someone in Australian authority) mentioned they were
killing
wallabees and koala bears.

I may be incredibly ignorant, but I fail to see how a "domestic" sized
cat
could kill a wallaby. Or even a koala bear, which may appear to be
gentle
but which have very large sharp claws. They aren't cuddly bears.


But are generally slow and dopey, with woeful eyesight. A cat would have
no trouble sneaking up on one. Perhaps the cat wouldn't kill an adult
directly, but the adult koala would sustain injuries that would lead to
its death. The cat would easily kill a baby or juvenile koala - and what
would happen to a baby koala if its mother was injured or killed by a cat?
It would die too. Ditto with wallabies (the smallest wallaby, btw, is the
size of a mouse)


Are they publishing the truth or is it just so much guff to try to stir
people up because cats need to get more recognition as pets in Australia?


Its probably a little of both.

There is no native equivalent of the domestic cat in Australia. Domestic
cats eveolved in a far more competitave ecology, one that was filled with
relatively small, fast moving, prolifically breeding prey with an
insitinctual reaction to a cat - run and hide!

The same cannot be said for our native fauna. Similarly sized native
fauna, and the young of larger fauna are in comparison, slow, stupid, have
no idea what to do in the face of a cat, and don't breen prolifically -
maybe only one or two youung per year as opposed to the 'millions' such
things as rabbits and mice make. Whilst the cats introduced into Australia
were origianlly to keep the rat & mouse population down (which were also
intorduced to Australia) the cats - not being stupid - quickly found
easier prey to catch. Native mice, native marsupials (we don't have native
mammals bar the dingo), and of course, young koalas, young wallabies etc
etc (and koalas and some wallabies really aren't that big - size of a hare
or thereabouts). Cats catch native birds, too, but the ground animals are
much easier prey than birds (which by and large are quite smart compared
to the marsupials)

We also don't have anythign that would prey on the domestic cat.

So we have a huge problem.

Not only that, the cats out there in the bush are generally not
'domestic', they've gone generationally feral. Through natural selection,
Australia has two type sof 'domestic' cat - the house cat, and the 'bush'
cat. The hosue cat is still the same size and temperament of house cats
around the world, the 'bush' cat is significantly bigger, smarter and far
far meaner. The 'bush' cat could not be re-domesticated much like a
bobtail could not be domesticated, they are *wild*.

The problem here in Australia with catch, neuter, release is twofold.
First, we're a big country with sod all population for the most part.
You'd have to pay someone to drive a day to go inland to the scrubland,
set traps, stay overnight somwhere that doens't have accomodation, then
drive a day back. After a week, you'd have to do the same thing to collect
the cats that were trapped. You'd have to have a small army doing this to
make any difference at all, and no-one has the funding for that.

Teh other problem is that even a neutered 'bush' cat can continue to
decimate the native fauna for many years to come, and continue to pass
disease onto the animals (domesticated and otherwise) it meets, even if
its not making more bush cats.

The bush cats need an eradication program, and no eradication program is
'pretty'. Please do not think of these 'bush' cats as potential pets -
they aren't. They are like bob cats or small lynxes that have had a
population explosion.

But Australians also need to change their attitude towards domestic house
cats, and they slowly are. Now both cats & dogs are required to be
registed by most councils (county areas). And its alot more expensive to
register an unneutered animal. Australians also need to know the impact
even their little neutered housecat can have on the native wildlife in
suburbia, and think very long and hard about letting said cat out between
dusk & dawn, when most cats do their hunting.

New Zealand, for the same reasons of unique ecology, has a similar
problem. The domestic cat has directly caused the extinction of a bird
that laid its nest on the beach. The kiwi - a flightless bird - is under
threat. The story of the domestic cat in these two countries shows just
how the 'circle of life' is actually a delicate balance, once that can
easily go disasterously wrong when a species that did not evelve int hat
circle is introduced. (The cane toad is another disaster story, and is
pretty much exactly the same as the cat problem).

Yowie


From everything I've read and learned since I first became interested in
Australia, a very large number of the problems Australia has have been
caused by animals that were introduced by visitors and settlers. Australia
has such a fascinating, unique ecology that it is really sad to see it being
destroyed.

Joy


  #5  
Old January 24th 08, 01:19 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Yowie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,225
Default I Question Something about Best Friends... need to ask our Aussie friends

wrote in message
...
Yowie wrote:

There is no native equivalent of the domestic cat in Australia...


[snip lots of fascinating stuff]

Not only that, the cats out there in the bush are generally not
'domestic',
they've gone generationally feral. Through natural selection, Australia
has
two type sof 'domestic' cat - the house cat, and the 'bush' cat. The
hosue
cat is still the same size and temperament of house cats around the
world,
the 'bush' cat is significantly bigger, smarter and far far meaner. The
'bush' cat could not be re-domesticated much like a bobtail could not be
domesticated, they are *wild*.


Wow, are you saying that the bush cat has evolved from the original
domestic cat brought by ships to Australia, into a different species of
feline? I didn't know about this. Are they really a separate species?
Could the bush cat procreate with a house cat? (Not asking if anyone
would *want* this to happen, just wondering whether it's physically
possible.)


No, not seperate species in that they can't interbreed, more like the
difference between wolves and domestic dogs. Are capable of breeding and
producing viable hybrids, but you would be unwise to take a wolf cub home
and expect it to grow up into the 'family dog'.

There are some that maintain that the Australian 'bush' cat is a seperate
'breed' again. I don't know.

Nor do I really know what to do about the problem. Its not as simple as
'catch, neuter, release', nor is it as simple as just 'cull all feral cats'.
The problem is actually *human beings*, the cats and the problems they cause
in Australia (and New Zealand) are merely a symptom.

Yowie


  #6  
Old January 24th 08, 01:31 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Yowie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,225
Default I Question Something about Best Friends... need to ask our Aussie friends

Found a few articles ont he subject of hte Australian feral cat that appear
to be well researched and balanced.

http://www.messybeast.com/ausdilemma.htm
http://www.messybeast.com/auspredicament.htm

Yowie


  #7  
Old January 24th 08, 03:44 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
Karen AKA Kajikit
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 563
Default I Question Something about Best Friends... need to ask our Aussie friends

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:25:03 -0600, "jmcquown"
wrote:

I read an article in 'Best Friends' magazine (the cat rescue organization in
the U.S., with whom I've sponsored two animals) about how people in
Australia generally consider cats as nuisances, not good pets and "not
friendly".

Knowing we have a number of cat-loving Australians here in rpca, I really
have to question what I was reading. Is it true the shelters (and the
government in general) doesn't believe in shelters neutering/spaying or
spay/neuter programs vs. euthanizing cats?

Not criticizing what 'Best Friends' said, but they stated that when
Australia was being colonized the cats were accepted as rat catchers on
ships that brought people (many British convicts) over the cats were
accepted. But once the cats were turned loose at the docks of Sydney they
started killing local wildlife. And they didn't mention birds, no, not at
all. They (via someone in Australian authority) mentioned they were killing
wallabees and koala bears.

I may be incredibly ignorant, but I fail to see how a "domestic" sized cat
could kill a wallaby. Or even a koala bear, which may appear to be gentle
but which have very large sharp claws. They aren't cuddly bears.

Are they publishing the truth or is it just so much guff to try to stir
people up because cats need to get more recognition as pets in Australia?

Jill

Sounds to me like somebody's an idiot. No way could a cat take down a
wallaby - a young joey maybe (they start out TINY and very dependant
on their mother)
The biggest problem with cats in Australia is them killing small
native birds - wrens, thrushes etc. Around Melbourne, cats have also
done a lot of damage to the lyrebird population (lyrebirds are very
large and beautiful birds but flightless and VERY slow and stupid...)
Feral cats are a big problem sadly... but as many Australians are
cat-lovers as in any other country!
  #8  
Old January 24th 08, 09:02 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,800
Default I Question Something about Best Friends... need to ask our Aussiefriends



wrote:
Yowie wrote:

There is no native equivalent of the domestic cat in Australia...


[snip lots of fascinating stuff]

Not only that, the cats out there in the bush are generally not 'domestic',
they've gone generationally feral. Through natural selection, Australia has
two type sof 'domestic' cat - the house cat, and the 'bush' cat. The hosue
cat is still the same size and temperament of house cats around the world,
the 'bush' cat is significantly bigger, smarter and far far meaner. The
'bush' cat could not be re-domesticated much like a bobtail could not be
domesticated, they are *wild*.


Wow, are you saying that the bush cat has evolved from the original
domestic cat brought by ships to Australia, into a different species of
feline? I didn't know about this. Are they really a separate species?
Could the bush cat procreate with a house cat? (Not asking if anyone
would *want* this to happen, just wondering whether it's physically
possible.)


My guess would be "Yes, easily!" Evidently the Australian
"bush" cats are simply the offspring of once domestic cats
that reverted to the wild, many generations ago - they are
probably still genetically "domestic" cats. Apparently the
smaller "wildcat" species in America are genetically close
enough so they can interbreed with domestic cats - I've read
of cases where a bob-cat mated with a large domestic cat,
resuting in kittens. (And domestic dogs can interbreed with
wolves - they aren't that far separate, genetically, "wild
animal" or not.)
  #9  
Old January 24th 08, 09:59 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,349
Default I Question Something about Best Friends... need to ask our Aussie friends

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote:

My guess would be "Yes, easily!" Evidently the Australian
"bush" cats are simply the offspring of once domestic cats
that reverted to the wild, many generations ago - they are
probably still genetically "domestic" cats.


Apparently the
smaller "wildcat" species in America are genetically close
enough so they can interbreed with domestic cats - I've read
of cases where a bob-cat mated with a large domestic cat,
resuting in kittens.


OK, but bobcats didn't *descend* from domestic cats. They were already
here when the domestic-cat-bearing Europeans arrived.

I think Yowie was saying that the bush cats of Australia *did* descend
from the domestic cats that the British brought over on their ships.
There were no felines on the continent prior to that.

My question was, have bush cats evolved into a different species of
feline? Yowie said no, so I'll accept that, since I know much less
about it than she does. Still, I find it interesting that bush cats
are *larger* than house cats. As far as I know, feral cats are the same
size as pet cats are in the US, so that's what led me to think that
the bush cats were evolving away from their origins. Well, perhaps
they are, but they still haven't gone far enough (yet) to be unable to
interbreed with a house cat. (*And* to produce fertile offspring -
that's the test of whether something is the same species. Many different
species can interbreed, but their offspring are sterile.)

Joyce
--
To send email to this address, remove the triple-X from my user name.
  #10  
Old January 24th 08, 10:50 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.anecdotes
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,800
Default I Question Something about Best Friends... need to ask our Aussiefriends



wrote:


My question was, have bush cats evolved into a different species of
feline? Yowie said no, so I'll accept that, since I know much less
about it than she does. Still, I find it interesting that bush cats
are *larger* than house cats. As far as I know, feral cats are the same
size as pet cats are in the US, so that's what led me to think that
the bush cats were evolving away from their origins.


My guess would be only because, as totally "wild" creatures,
selective breeding entered the mix - size became a survival
"plus". "Feral" cats in the rest of the world haven't been
that long separated from the domestic - or rather, their
ranks are constantly receiving fresh infusions of abandoned
domestic cats.

Well, perhaps
they are, but they still haven't gone far enough (yet) to be unable to
interbreed with a house cat. (*And* to produce fertile offspring -
that's the test of whether something is the same species. Many different
species can interbreed, but their offspring are sterile.)


Donkeys and horses, for example. (A "breeding pair" of
mules might simplify things considerably!) ;-)
 




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